[00:11:00] *** Quits: SoNeta (piespy@rbose.IRC.people) (Connection closed) [00:11:06] *** Quits: nobody (UFO@Unidentified.Flying.Object) (Quit: Ctrl-C at console.) [00:11:42] * Evil Will be back soon ^^ [00:13:54] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-e51eni.bredband.skanova.com) [00:16:42] *** Quits: devbot (supybot@RBOSE-fnj.k3a.168.192.IP) (Connection closed) [00:18:47] *** Quits: Evil (Viper@NetAdmin.RBOSE) (Connection closed) [00:19:01] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-e51eni.bredband.skanova.com) (Server shutdown) [00:19:01] *** Quits: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-11g.ogf.180.213.IP) (Server shutdown) [00:19:25] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-e51eni.bredband.skanova.com) [00:28:00] Viper: all these dates are over in 2 days, did you ever decide one a final date? http://www.doodle.com/veet6ic4aaiibsxe [00:28:01] URL Title: Doodle: Meeting [00:28:18] oh he isnt here [00:37:09] http://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/news/IntroducingTheTAC/index.en.html [00:37:10] URL Title: Introducing the TAC [00:37:24] TAC = Technical Advisory Committee [00:41:39] http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/freedombox-discuss/ [00:41:40] URL Title: The Freedombox-discuss Archives [01:01:12] nice lukas =) [01:04:32] http://users.telenet.be/fietser/fotos/VM4SD-FVDWsm.pdf Kungliga Tekniska högskolan [01:04:33] Royal Institute of Technology Department for infrastructure "The Velomobile as a Vehicle for more Sustainable Transportation" [01:05:01] Caly, the last one paper is from Sweden :) [01:11:39] http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/09/the-velomobile-high-tech-bike-or-low-tech-car.html [01:11:41] URL Title: Low-tech Magazine: The velomobile: high-tech bike or low-tech car? [01:13:27] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-e51eni.bredband.skanova.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [01:29:48] *** Quits: Antilect (Antilect@RBOSE-uvec0q.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: ) [01:55:19] http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/26/republicans-climate-solution-clearcut-the-rain-forest/ LOL [01:55:20] URL Title: Republicans Climate Solution: Clearcut the Rain Forest - NYTimes.com [02:06:55] brainless politicians [02:08:18] there are politicians with brains? [02:08:21] next idea: oh we have too much UV waves from sun we must build a parasol in front of the sun [02:08:32] http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/spent_nuclear_fuel_pools_in_the_us_reducing_the_deadly_risks_of_storage this is sick too [02:08:33] URL Title: Spent Nuclear Fuel Pools in the US: Reducing the Deadly Risks of Storage - IPS [02:09:41] "Even though they contain some of the largest concentrations of radioactivity on the planet, U.S. spent nuclear fuel pools are mostly contained in ordinary industrial structures designed to merely protect them against the elements. Some are made from materials commonly used to house big-box stores and car dealerships." [02:11:05] :| [02:20:24] kalken, this might be something very interesting for you: http://www.notechmagazine.com/2011/05/innovation-tradition-the-works-of-hassan-fathy-online.html [02:20:26] URL Title: No Tech Magazine: Innovation & Tradition: The Complete Works of Hassan Fathy Online [02:21:14] there is a link to download books on the bottom of the post [02:35:48] http://www.universityreviewsonline.com/2005/10/100-most-inspiring-and-innovative-blogs-for-educators.html [02:35:49] URL Title: 100 Most Inspiring and Innovative Blogs for Educators | University Reviews Online [02:54:29] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXmVZCUVk8E [02:54:30] You4Tube 2[Title] Guns, Gods and Goodness - The Use and Abuse of Ethics 2[Category] Education 2[Duration] 0:03:02 2[Views] 5322 2[Rating] 4.67 2[Uploaded] 2011-04-22 2[Description] Why be good? Until we have an answer, all we will have is abuse. From Freedomain Radio -- http://www.freedomainradio.com There's this very tragic continuum in human thought wherein - in general - if somebody tends to be less religious, they tend to be mo [02:59:42] *** Quits: lukas_ (lukas@RBOSE-gkfu2h) (Quit: ) [04:35:11] *** Parts: BranManFloMore (BranManFloMor@RBOSE-9km.vot.43.71.IP) [05:06:50] *** Joins: BranManFloMore (BranManFloMor@RBOSE-i97fcv.biz.rr.com) [05:15:13] *** Quits: BranManFloMore (BranManFloMor@RBOSE-i97fcv.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [05:39:46] *** Quits: JoshStrobl (qwebirc@RBOSE-68b.ovv.19.72.IP) (Quit: Page closed) [06:25:11] *** Joins: nobody (UFO@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [06:25:55] -nobody- nobody has joined on FREENODE [06:25:57] *** Joins: Viper (Viper@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [06:25:57] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +o nobody [06:26:20] -nobody- Out`Of`Control has joined on FREENODE [06:26:22] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Out`Of`Control [06:28:07] *** Joins: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-11g.ogf.180.213.IP) [07:29:11] *** Joins: Sixth_Ape (sixth_ape@RBOSE-uus.l0u.132.41.IP) [07:42:54] *** Quits: Sixth_Ape (sixth_ape@RBOSE-uus.l0u.132.41.IP) (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) [07:48:23] *** Joins: kman (kman@RBOSE-hhm.9h0.94.93.IP) [08:36:24] *** Quits: kman (kman@RBOSE-hhm.9h0.94.93.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [09:39:39] *** Joins: lukas_ (lukas@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [10:01:52] http://politics.slashdot.org/story/11/05/27/0233251/Polands-Prime-Minister-Goes-For-Open-Government [10:01:53] URL Title: Poland's Prime Minister Goes For Open Government - Slashdot [10:02:39] we will see if these are just empty words or there is real action behind it... [10:05:53] "Relax, it's just talking, there is an election comming this fall, so he has to fill voters' brains with dull promises. So.. nothing to be excited about, it won't happen" [10:06:49] "The guy is talking about creating a category of free information, not making everything publically available as the summary claims. Seems it’s about moving Poland towards the position already occupied by the rest of the EU, not barrelling past it." [10:07:58] The statement's on the gov site from the meeting are double exactly as pointed out by these guys. [10:10:15] morning lukas_ [10:10:46] hi :) [10:25:43] Viper: all these dates are over in 2 days, did you ever decide one a final date? http://www.doodle.com/veet6ic4aaiibsxe [10:25:44] URL Title: Doodle: Meeting [10:26:26] Kebap thanks good question [10:27:17] Kebap maybe today or tomorrow i think [10:28:15] yeah maybe ^^ but we need to know sson enough to prepare ^^ anyway got to go now, see you later [10:28:53] Kebap i need to ask if i can catch them :D [10:31:25] have a great time Kebap [10:34:14] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Nl2Xnmd5g haven't seen yet, hopefully this is the great peace where the guy from EFF is bashing the whole e-G8 crap [10:34:15] You4Tube 2[Title] eG8 - interventions of John Perry Barlow and Jérémie Zimmermann - Tuesday, May 24th 2011 2[Category] Nonprofit 2[Duration] 0:36:26 2[Views] 1643 2[Rating] 5.00 2[Uploaded] 2011-05-25 2[Description] "You cannot own free speech" - John Perry Barlow, Electronic Frontier Foundation "On n'est pas des voleurs" - Jérémie Zimmermann, La Quadrature du Net eG8 - Plenary IV - Intellectual Property and the Culture Economy [10:35:09] if that would not be it and somebody will find the whole speech of John Perry Barlow, please let me know :D [10:37:50] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation [10:37:52] URL Title: Electronic Frontier Foundation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [10:42:14] *** Joins: Antilect (Antilect@RBOSE-uvec0q.tbcn.telia.com) [11:06:36] yeah, Viper, thats is good speech! [11:07:07] i am watching it :D [11:23:47] you could easily substitute the words of the other guys with money and control and you would get almost the same [11:24:37] Respect LOL [11:46:27] lukas_ i miss one think in there [11:46:33] When you copy you dont steal [11:46:40] that is BS [11:46:53] exactly [11:58:58] Viper, but for me it's completely fine to not use proprietary shit, we just need to create free content and say to these folks "fukk off" [12:00:45] agree [12:01:34] i boycott such crap by not even watching or listening to it, they cannot say they loose money because one is not interested in their production, they are cutting the branch they are sitting on, let them do it [12:03:27] and that idea of individual profit at cost of whole civilization's progress and better life is psychopathic in the very core [12:05:11] holy industry, lol [12:06:05] lukas_: until they cut the branch we are all sitting on :-( [12:06:33] comotion, how so? [12:09:01] if you mean enforcement of the copyleft with the copyright, i get it [12:11:13] for me the problem is the copyright of news and documents made thanks to people paying to media corporations and gov owned stations, and then the fact of not letting these people _know_ what is going on and share the news with others, WTF [12:19:58] i will copyright shit. So they cant shit any more! :D [12:20:14] i don't listen to any proprietary music, i do not use any proprietary app, i do not watch as well any feature films (waste of life from my perspective to watch false stories and award the best professional liars for their acting, lol), i do what i can to finish with proprietary devices, i get books i don't want to buy from libraries (oh yeah, they wanted to shut down libraries in the past as well, the places were people can access knowledge in a libre way), [12:20:15] simply screw them, let them live in a world they want live and keep them away from your freedom, people should be free to choose in which kind of relations they want to live in [12:22:06] word [12:39:42] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-e51eni.bredband.skanova.com) [12:40:01] -nobody- Calyp has joined on FREENODE [13:27:16] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM [13:27:17] You4Tube 2[Title] Sugar: The Bitter Truth 2[Category] Education 2[Duration] 1:29:28 2[Views] 1348537 2[Rating] 4.94 2[Uploaded] 2009-07-30 2[Description] Robert H. Lustig, MD, UCSF Professor of Pediatrics in the Division of Endocrinology, explores the damage caused by sugary foods. He argues that fructose (too much) and fiber (not enough) appear to be cornerstones of the obesity epidemic through their effects on insulin. Series: UCS [14:09:54] have a great time guys and see you later [14:10:00] *** Quits: lukas_ (lukas@RBOSE-gkfu2h) (Quit: ) [14:28:04] *** Joins: Ves (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) [14:29:00] So this place dead or...? [14:33:45] Hi Ves [14:34:01] Hi, didnt expect a response :o [14:34:25] Doesnt seem like the RBE crowd is active at all, actually :( [14:34:34] this is not RBE [14:34:57] Really? [14:34:59] ?? projects [14:35:00] projects: RBOSE Projects: http://rbose.org/wiki/Projects [14:35:10] ?? whw [14:35:10] whw[x]: No defintion found for word. [14:35:22] really [14:35:47] So what does RBOSE do? [14:36:11] check projects list [14:36:25] make stuff and share [14:36:35] so people can use it NOW [14:37:41] The end goal being...? [14:37:55] space is endless [14:38:09] Ves read Why What How [14:38:12] ?? wwh [14:38:14] wwh[x]: No defintion found for word. [14:38:28] http://rbose.org/wiki/RBOSE:WHW [14:38:29] URL Title: RBOSE:WHW - RBOSE [14:39:35] Nice word salad and all... So the idea is just expand opensource tech? [14:39:58] Free Technology [14:40:11] Share knowladge [14:40:41] You had me at Hi and not being TZM, where do I sign up? [14:40:48] floss in society (e.g more than software)! [14:41:03] Ves: lol [14:41:36] I tell you, I went to the TZM site getting all pumped to do MADSCIENCE and shit, and all I got was "Well thats not what we DO here." [14:41:49] I asked "Well what is it you do besides nothing?" [14:41:56] fuck tzm [14:42:03] its waste of time even talk about that crap [14:42:09] "ACTIVISMACTIVISMACTIVISMACTIVISMACTIVISMACTIVISMACTIVISMACTIVISMACTIVISM" [14:42:15] "What does that solve?" [14:42:20] Ves i call it spamming haha [14:42:34] "NOTHING, IT MAKES US FEEL IMPORTANT" And thats about it D: [14:42:55] its hard to solve problems and work with scientific method, if the doors to the knowledge and basis are shut. [14:43:04] But yeah, actually doing stuff, awesome. [14:43:45] Not necessarily shut or w/e for them, more anyone trying to actually do any of the stuff they advocate gets stonewalled like a motherfucker. [14:43:48] Its bullshit D: [14:44:11] Hate that place :( [14:44:53] Anyway, whats been going on in recent events with RBOSE? [14:45:28] ?? news [14:45:29] news[1]: RBOSE-News: http://rbose.org/wiki/News [14:45:31] news[2]: If you would like to see some other interesting news in real-time from different sources (for example about Free Software, Hardware, Culture), then just type: /join #news [14:45:54] Thats... noooooooooot helpful :x [14:46:20] Ves did you look there? [14:46:23] I mean projects, events pertaining to RBOSE, as in do you guys have any meetups or whatever. [14:46:30] I have the news stream open here [14:46:41] Derp, link. [14:46:44] Sorry [14:47:01] http://rbose.org/wiki/News [14:47:02] URL Title: News - RBOSE [14:47:18] Yes yes, I know, I clicked it :x [14:47:53] Most of this is site design stuff D: [14:48:37] Got a few interesting projects... but whats the status of them? where do I check that out at? [14:50:09] umm Press on link [14:50:25] Startling lack of materials acquisition technology D:! [14:50:49] You must into plastics and all that jazz. [14:50:50] you can join any project [14:50:54] or make new one [14:51:10] ONly it need to fit our http://rbose.org/wiki/RBOSE:General_disclaimer [14:51:11] URL Title: RBOSE:Policy - RBOSE [14:51:32] and we need lots of help Ves :) [14:51:46] special with writing documents and new website [14:52:22] Money is gay. Unsustainable activities and all that crap, nothing to worry about with the MOTD [14:52:44] And I grew out of my totalitarian dictator phase. [14:53:10] Wait- you actually have to tell people these things? [14:54:46] Although that does bring up certain issues... What about starter capital for funding projects? Do you guys have a sort of central funding division to get things like equipment or materials if neccesary? [14:55:07] VEs we tell you how to build it [14:55:17] Then when you build it you can share with other that info [14:55:29] Or even tools its up to you [14:57:11] Kind of difficult to advance new/opensource technology with no funds or equipment to research the idea... Tons of people are unemployed and stuff nowadays :x [14:57:51] what kind of opensource technology? [14:59:09] For example, if you were to develop an idea for a water collection/purification system or a hydroponics system, if you dont have the tools or materials, you cant test it, so you cant refine the idea. [14:59:42] Ves some times you can build it much cheaper faster and spend less $ [15:00:21] I think there might be some miscommunication :x [15:00:44] We should use tools that people can access [15:01:19] Well, yes, but what I was saying is if the person or persons have an idea, how can they act upon it without the money or tools or resources? [15:01:38] I mean, they could put the idea out there, but I dont think that would help in the end... [15:01:52] And maybe there is a guy that would share tools with him [15:02:17] Ves you know this http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Hackerspaces [15:02:18] URL Title: HackerspaceWiki [15:03:01] Well... do you have something like that set up? For example: You could have a central "bank" with money in it to be devoted to projects that people collectively vote on to recieve funding, and a tool "library" that said projects can access tools from. [15:03:30] Ves i would like to stay away from money [15:03:34] Hackerspaces are nice, up until the part where they want retarded amounts of money to do what people can do at community or regular colleges for free :s [15:03:41] If you donate tools or share its ok but not $ [15:04:23] As would I, but as we are still living in a system that requires currency to do ANYTHING, it would be advantageous to have something like I suggested in place to advance ideas in acceptable timeframes. [15:04:49] Ves if you start asking Donations then you depend on Donations [15:04:58] The one that donate you most $ will control you [15:05:15] So then you will work to get more Donations and so on [15:05:32] Not really... I dont see how people in RBOSE donating spare change to the RBOSE "bank" to be used on RBOSE projects will lead to that... [15:06:06] we are trying to build something without that [15:06:51] How though? Do you expect the aforementioned unemployed people to fund research projects with hopes and dreams? [15:07:29] I dont know anyone who has 100lbs of spare copper/steel/iron/wood/etc lying around... [15:07:51] So the only option is to acquire the materials through normal means... [15:07:54] Ves maybe you can get it for free [15:08:02] Unless you have wizards or something... [15:08:40] You can acquire things for free, SOMETIMES. You cant expect every single material need to be met by the generosity of others... [15:11:36] Ves read WHW maybe then you understand it [15:14:05] I have read it... I dont see how it applies to a matter of logistics though. I wasnt suggesting you go out and beg for corporate sponsorship or whatever, I was suggesting that if people already involved in RBOSE or people who agree with your philosophy want to donate funds to a transparent funding pool, it would greatly increase the speed at which progress is made :x [15:15:26] Ves we are trying to make something differend [15:15:59] Okay...? Im missing something here... [15:16:12] Ves if some one dont like RBOSE he can fork it [15:16:18] or fork any project and make it better [15:16:44] Um.... [15:17:02] $ sucks [15:17:07] Yes. [15:17:43] We get so far without asking for money [15:17:52] But you still have to use it to operate in society because of the depth of the grip of the monetary system... [15:18:47] Youll get the first few hundred pounds of whatever materials for free, but I seriously think youre overestimating people's generosity. It seems theyll give until the point it stops being convinient for THEM, then theyll cut you off. [15:26:15] ,mumble [15:26:16] [1] users online @ RBOSE's Mumble: (for Mumble help, type: ?? mumble) [15:26:17] [1] AFK - Away From Keyboard: Viper [15:26:29] :) [15:26:34] Hm? [15:26:47] Yeah we can see from here who is in mumble :) [15:27:03] I jumped into it foe a sec, but nobodys there so I closed it :x [15:27:19] as you can see i am the only one there [15:27:22] Where is everybody? [15:27:33] Tomorrow we will have meeting you can join [15:27:49] Might not be able to, but cool :o [15:28:18] *** Joins: lukas_ (lukas@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [15:28:56] wb lukas_ :) [15:29:07] thanks :D my plans changed [15:29:46] so you will go to church tomorrow? :D [15:29:55] JK [15:29:59] But seriously, how is the idea of a centralized, completely transparent (and controlled by the collective) "bank" (not really the right term, more like funding pool), unsound? [15:30:29] Ves its not centralized [15:30:41] oh wait [15:31:08] Why wouldnt it be? It would be for ALL ("worthy") projects to draw from, not specialized in any one area... [15:31:13] maybe lukas_ can explain better why we dont like asking for donation [15:31:39] hi Ves, welcome :) [15:31:49] what you guys talking exactly about? [15:31:49] Hi [15:32:34] I proposed a central funding pool operated by the collective (or whatever you want to call it) toaccelerate project completion and development :x [15:34:24] and what you tried so far to do without money? [15:34:58] What do you mean? My personal projects or...? [15:35:43] yes, what you personally tried to build without money? [15:37:40] create would be a better word [15:39:16] *** Joins: Ves_ (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) [15:39:35] *** Joins: VED (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) [15:39:43] I crashed [15:39:46] Or something.. [15:39:55] <-Ves [15:40:06] Did my last message go through? [15:40:19] [15:34:58] What do you mean? My personal projects or.. [15:40:23] [15:35:43] yes, what you personally tried to build without money? [15:40:24] Damn. [15:40:26] Standby [15:40:28] [15:37:40] create would be a better word [15:41:32] I have many projects Ive designed, none Ive built because of the obstacle that is the lack of funds. I assume I am not the only developer that has felt this burden, a funding pool would be a godsend. Ive got designs for power, water, food... [15:42:21] Not EXACTLY what I said before, more summarized :x [15:42:32] did you publish that anywhere? [15:42:59] *** Quits: Ves (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [15:43:35] No, why would I? Theyre untested, not even prototyped. Some of my designs could have SERIOUS problems that could injure someone. [15:44:26] For example, one of my designs for power production is basically a complete anaerobic digestion system tied into a miniature HRSG system/water purification system. [15:44:56] we use licenses which makes users aware of such problems and they use products in the all foss community without any warranty, and they run atomic ships on it, because other people can test it, you don't need to be the only one [15:45:26] Not only are gas explosion/containment problems a possibility, but turbine failures, steam explosions... pretty much a nightmare for anyone jumping into them with no prior knowledge of them.. [15:45:58] people can be warn about any of that [15:46:38] Yeah, warned. If something were to go wrong with a design like that, no one would further any other design from that creator, because they make dangerous shit :x [15:47:06] VED if you dont share it then its useless [15:47:21] *** Quits: Ves_ (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [15:47:26] What Im saying is: Even if I DO share it, its probably useless. [15:47:33] No [15:47:46] when you share it some one els could jump on and make it better [15:48:24] Or I could do it, seeing as I have prior knowledge about it, its possible flaws, its possible upgrades or improvements... [15:48:54] VED when you share more people would see it more opinions [15:49:12] VED more people would see what could be done better [15:49:28] VED thats why opensource is better then any closesource [15:49:43] people can see source code [15:49:59] you know, almost everything on this planet was once a shit, dust, and even big industry extracts simply that shit and makes it shiny, connects with other shit, and there you go, it's like magic, but did you ever tried to get the parts from any junkyard? [15:50:21] Im not saying closesource it, Im saying give the resources to the people that make the idea so they can improve what they can BEFORE opensourcing it. [15:50:25] Isnt that the point? [15:50:48] VED resources are all around us. We need only to know HOW to use it [15:51:08] and not fight over one useless shit hehe [15:51:11] like $ [15:51:13] Also, if you know of a junkyard where I can get turbines rated for 15k+ RPM under continuous load, Ill suck your dick x.x [15:51:42] VED thanks no [15:51:49] lol [15:52:04] Obviously I was joking, but you cant just pick something like that out of the mud and rust. [15:52:14] VED you can if you know how [15:52:24] Ehhh....no... [15:52:31] * lukas_ winders how the industry does it ;) [15:52:38] wonders* [15:52:42] VED you see RepRap? [15:52:55] Any turbines that would be in a junkyard would be there because of flaws, aka unsafe/unusable. [15:53:17] And yes, I own a crapcake CNC from CONARTIST magazine. [15:53:30] no, they end up there as well because of ignorance of people who don't know how to make stuff [15:54:09] Lukas, Im talking about industrial-grade gas turbines for power generation. [15:54:20] the whole problem exists, when people use scare materials, they need money, they need to take away something from others, when they look for abundant one the whole situation changes - they can simply copy, none need to take anything from them and give to anybody [15:54:33] They get "thrown out" when they are no longer capable of doing what they do. [15:54:46] VED, maybe instead of 1 15KW you may have 10 1.5kW? [15:55:01] Or 1 explosion x.x [15:55:32] think differend [15:56:17] differend? [15:56:38] Blah this is getting far away from my original point [15:56:54] umm [15:57:36] VED not any one can get 15 KW turbine [15:57:42] the money game is simply an illusion, it works like this: i decide that i will be the one who will be able to make money in first case, then i give some money to Viper, he gives it to you and you gave it to me, and we all can say "Hurray! We are rich!" [15:58:05] my question is what physically changes? [15:58:18] I have no idea where you guys are going x.x [15:58:43] Infrastructure needs to be put into place that will get people the things they cant pluck out of a junkyard. [15:58:55] I dont see how this will derail anything or be problematic. [15:59:25] What IS problematic is expecting people to be able to fund research on hopes and dreams, especially in the middle of a worldwide economic crisis. [15:59:46] VED let people BUILD it not work and give some donations [15:59:49] fuck donations [15:59:56] from time to time we have a social drama in form of monetary crisis, people stop believing that banks are not trusted anymore, they start to be hungry, stop working for each other, but is there any change in physical state of the world? [16:00:07] You like it Build it Share it. [16:00:19] are trusted* anymore [16:00:43] Lukas youre not being very helpful here, and Viper, how do you expect anything to get done in the current paradigm with no funding? [16:01:16] VED you see this server? [16:01:24] we did not ask for money to have it [16:01:49] money is just a believe system, it goes this way since decades, today money are not even a document anymore, you simply get some point on your game account, there is even no information who made them, when, etc. [16:02:01] VED you can build turbine with money [16:02:14] You need a guy that will make it and Data how to build it [16:02:18] Yeah, youre using freely available software, which is put onto the back of the interbutts, which is kept alive by MONEY, because it costs something to keep the backbone up, power it, maintain it, etc. [16:02:23] MOney cant build or mak anything [16:02:44] i ask this way: who does pay to mother nature? [16:03:44] This is crazy, why is the simple notion of removing the single largest obstacle to your technological development met with such adversity (and honestly kind of craziness, or a major language barrier or something...) [16:04:19] Im not saying money is the solution, Im saying its a means to an end. [16:04:20] or perspective [16:04:51] Probably the only means for this particular example. [16:05:29] yeah, bankers say that the means to an end, but if i can do something for you freely and you can do it for me and other people do same, who the heck does need money? [16:07:06] i can totally understand that one may not know how to build a turbine from scratch, but other people do know that, but the cost are generated because they are not willing to help each other without that virtual game heaving anything to do with physical world [16:07:09] Right... get me 3 stainless steel vacuum welded tanks, 1 50gallon, 1 100 gallon, and 1 500 gallon, a turbine whose dimensions do not exceed 3ft cubed, capable of 15k+rpm under the constant load of a generator, get me said generator, etc. [16:07:54] VED get me a BMW [16:07:57] A turbine is not something you can just scrap together, or find in a dump. [16:08:00] or get me a Bike? [16:08:16] You can, however, find a bike in a dump. [16:08:26] but not BMW [16:08:27] But not a usuable gas turbine. [16:08:33] VED, how many people will gonna use that what you described? [16:10:12] None, except whoever is testing the design with me. Once a stable platform is ready and tested, then itll go opensource, and the prototype will probably be moved to a location utilizing my aforementioned designs as part of a "off grid" system, supplying whoever lives in the "test house/camp" with powah. [16:11:12] Im not going to just toss to whoever potentially lethal designs. Thats sheer stupidity. [16:11:26] They need to be tested and tested again. [16:12:09] is this a personal "pocket" device? doesn't sound like that, doesn't sound like anything sustainable at first shot, doesn't sound like anything decentralized, distributed, diy, and if it's not: wouldn't it makes sense to do it with other people who want to do exactly what you want instead of you deciding how money of other people would be converted into load of stuff nobody will use? [16:13:45] Uh... "pocket"? No. The design Im using as an example with a power production plant for a house or a small community. It uses a natural biological process to generate methane and get rid of biological waste... [16:14:00] Pretty fucking useful design here... [16:14:31] you see, money are based on exchange value, not on contribution value, they flow from people (are taken away) to other people, and with contribution you put more and more into a pool of commons and everybody is able to copy from it ...as long they not try to take something away from others [16:14:53] Gooooooooooooood what are you even talking about? [16:15:34] VED i am agaisnt asking money [16:15:44] I can do without the dogma, Im as against money as a person can possibly be, I just dont delude myself into thinking that everything that needs to be done can be done without money in a society COMPLETELY indoctrinated into its use. [16:15:49] I'm talking about this: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/Main_Page#The_Book [16:16:16] As am I, but if it serves a purpose, it serves a purpose, and I cant think of a better purpose than to be used to bring about its end. [16:16:26] or part of it because i don't find it personally developed enough [16:16:47] If people have power, food, water, and the means of production, they wont NEED money anymore. [16:17:01] exactly [16:17:12] Which is what Im trying to do here... [16:17:21] But Im facing opposition. [16:17:26] Which is kind of crazy >.> [16:17:52] depends on perspective [16:18:55] Remarks about things Im not even remotely close to discussing are a little crazy :x [16:22:09] if you really need asking for money, there are places like kickstarter, some foss projects are founded with it, but you don't need any socialist dogma of centralized "collective" economy to gather money and resources in order to be able to do something [16:22:16] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-e51eni.bredband.skanova.com) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [16:22:16] *** Quits: VED (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [16:22:16] *** Quits: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-11g.ogf.180.213.IP) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [16:22:16] *** Quits: nobody (UFO@RBOSE-gkfu2h) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [16:22:16] *** Quits: Viper (Viper@NetAdmin.RBOSE) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [16:25:18] *** Joins: nobody (UFO@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [16:25:18] *** Joins: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-11g.ogf.180.213.IP) [16:25:18] *** Joins: Viper (Viper@NetAdmin.RBOSE) [16:25:18] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-e51eni.bredband.skanova.com) [16:25:18] *** Joins: VED (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) [16:25:28] wb guys [16:26:15] *** Joins: Ves (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) [16:26:23] Think it died on me [16:26:41] we got a split [16:26:51] Hm? [16:26:58] *** Quits: VED (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [16:27:39] several servers are connected into one network here and one disconnected [16:27:58] [16:18:55] Remarks about things Im not even remotely close to discussing are a little crazy :x [16:28:00] [16:22:09] if you really need asking for money, there are places like kickstarter, some foss projects are founded with it, but you don't need any socialist dogma of centralized "collective" economy to gather money and resources in order to be able to do something [16:29:50] Kickstarter does it when theyre garunteed a return. [16:30:19] and how much is that? [16:30:24] ty [16:30:31] Whatever is agreed upon..? [16:30:41] i don't know, i don't use it [16:30:44] lukas_ i turn off modem wrong adapter LOL [16:30:46] sorry [16:30:54] no problem [16:31:12] Hrm... is english you two's first language? [16:31:25] -nobody- Out`Of`Control has joined on FREENODE [16:31:26] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Out`Of`Control [16:31:37] Ves, did you ever calculated how much you really need for that project if you have no blind idea how to build it with other people as peers, connecting and sharing resources, problems, effort, because they would have same interest in such a project? [16:31:47] nope [16:32:16] A hell of a lot more than what I, or a group, would have access to without funding. [16:32:48] Would take one HELL of a generous dude to GIVE away a gas turbine like the one needed... [16:33:04] Then i would again say, this is not self-sufficient solution at all. You cannot do big change if other people are not able to do same easily. [16:33:32] Which brings me to my expansion on the collective fundpool issue: Your first priority should be getting your means of production together. [16:33:49] Lukas... I dont think you know what youre talking about :( [16:34:07] Ves I would like to work that any one can build it [16:34:12] So i say a bike not a BMW [16:34:37] i say 1.5 KW and not 15 KW [16:34:56] Gah I need to talk to someone with a more comprehensive grasp of the english language... something isnt getting through here x.x [16:35:18] Ves Not any one can Build that [16:35:27] in other words only rich people can build it [16:35:33] No...? [16:35:54] Ves you think any one can get donation to get 15 KW turbine? [16:36:09] Ves, you cannot build right now, can't you? [16:36:39] Where did 15KW come from? Why dont you understand anything Im saying? What is going ooooooooooooooon x.x [16:36:57] Ves i think you dont understand [16:37:03] Please read Why How What [16:37:31] Ves if we all start asking for money that would not help any one [16:38:40] Ugh, Ive read that thing already, nothing useful is contained in the 6 paragraphs that make up that section. Asking people to donate to a collective pool FOR THE RESEARCH of the entire group is not against anything RBOSE says it stands for. Its a logistics measure ONLY, and a necessary one at that. [16:39:08] We need people that will make that research [16:39:13] not pay some one els to do that... [16:39:31] http://rbose.org/wiki/RBOSE:Policy [16:39:32] URL Title: RBOSE:Policy - RBOSE [16:39:41] there you have statement about money [16:40:16] FFS, the funds will go to the people already in RBOSE, it will pay for the materials they require to do THEIR research. [16:40:32] Ves why dont you build a mini turbine first to test it out? [16:40:39] Why start with a big one [16:41:29] Ves you are trying to find a way to use money. I try find a way so you dont need it [16:41:38] SIGH, I SAID not exceeding 4ft cubed. [16:41:56] AKA about as small as a power-producing turbine can get. [16:42:21] And no, Im trying to find a way for resources to get from where they are to where they need to be. [16:42:42] Money is nothing more than an obstacle, you remove that obstacle, and you get results. [16:43:00] You dont have money, no resources, no results. [16:43:12] Unfortunately thats the way it is. [16:43:20] How you or I feel does not change the matter. [16:43:23] Ves thats what you believe [16:44:14] No, thats how it IS. You cant get all of the required resources for numerous projects through "finding" them or lucking out and getting a specific part/material from someone for free. [16:44:32] maybe you are doing wrong projects [16:44:50] *working [16:44:57] You can, however, get a small amount of currency (tradable for ANY resource/tool, as well as being compact and easily movable) from many people. [16:45:27] I dont see how solving the issue of power production outside of the main grid is the "wrong" project. [16:45:40] Money is nothing more than an obstacle, you remove that obstacle, and you get results. -- True, so why to pass that obstacle on other people? [16:46:15] Nor do I see how setting up the necessary logistics to ensure access to resources is the "wrong" project. [16:47:06] Then put a donation button on your personal website. [16:49:08] Alright, since Lukas still isnt getting it, heres how it would work; People give whatever amount they want to a single "account" or what have you. That account's details are available to EVERYONE, who accesses it, who adds to it, who takes from it, and where those funds are going, what theyre being used for, etc. Everyone gets a say in how those funds are used, projects that dont perform get cut, ones that do get more, etc. [16:50:18] You have 5 or so people that have access to move the funds, all voted into the position, passwords and details for the account change after every "rotation" to ensure people dont just clean it out and run. [16:50:21] Ves, please to not use logical fallacy techniques, it doesn't matter to the argument if i get it or not :) [16:51:17] Logical fallacy techniques? Youre talking about unrelated things, the only logical conclusion I can come up with is you dont understand what Im saying _/_ [16:51:23] -.-* [16:51:23] Ves i hate donations [16:51:32] Yes, weve established this. [16:51:34] Donations is like praying [16:51:38] Not really. [16:51:42] People donate money and feel good like they did something good [16:51:44] fuck it [16:51:54] If you like to help do something in real [16:52:11] Thats what Im trying to do here... [16:52:20] No [16:52:27] you are saying asking for money is ok [16:52:31] i say its Wrong [16:52:43] You can ask for turbine tools and stuff but not $ [16:53:24] Youve got to be shitting me. Im SAYING that you need infrastructure to assist research, and the only logical and efficient way to do so is to get funds to purchase the machinery and tools to DO said research. [16:53:31] Not your crazy jibberjabber [16:53:42] Ves there is other way Share stuff [16:53:51] "projects that dont perform get cut" - like corporation, they have that peculiar ability to suck money, and disappear... [16:53:52] then you dont need funds [16:54:02] Yeah, go try to mail a 5000lb CNC machine. [16:54:23] Ves maybe i can be fine without it [16:54:33] Awfully hard to share things when you have CONTINENTS of distance between people. [16:54:55] Most important is Knowladge not $ or stuff [16:54:58] Viper, what do you expect, people to machine turbine blades with spit and chisels? [16:55:29] there are no people at your continent? sorry i could not resist :x [16:55:48] -.- this is starting to become like TZM, all idealists, no realists... [16:56:16] Ves you did not talk about your project but only donations... [16:56:49] as i see Donation is more important then that project [16:57:01] Im assuming you guys at least have a world map of your members, if you look at it, they arent all in one neat little area. You cannot 'share" large machinery over great distances, and if you were to mail blueprints and parts back and forth it would cost you *GASP* MONEY! [16:57:25] money, money, money... Viper, because the project would be about gathering more money... i mean infrastructure O_o [16:58:02] Youve gotta be shitting me. Do either of you understand ANYTHING about logistics? [16:58:35] Ves i am confused [16:59:15] Ves if you would like to share talk about your project you are welcome [16:59:20] VERY SIMPLE TREE HERE: Get Money-> Use Money to acquire tools and machinery (The means of production for whatever your researchers require)-> Give tools/parts/whatever to researchers-> Have research done. [16:59:25] Thats all there is to it. [16:59:33] Not get money->take over world [16:59:41] Or whatever the hell you guys think x.x [16:59:46] Ves not every one can get Money How many times i need to say that??? [17:00:19] FFS, You say "Hey! Starting a funding pool for tools and machinery to kickstart more/better research!" [17:00:45] Ves, so you don't share any blueprint, don't share any design, no bill of parts, no rationale, no paper and want to ask for money? maybe an emotional advertisement should be put to that to convince others? [17:00:56] Ves you are focused more on donation then your project... i am confused [17:01:08] you work on turbine or on collecting Donation? [17:02:36] Lukas, please dont take this the wrong way, but are you retarded? Are either or both of you retarded? I have M-A-N-Y projects, NONE of which are of concern to the issue of the moment which is the astounding lack of a basic logistical structure in your organization... [17:02:57] Ves so stop talking about money [17:03:07] i would like to know see more data about projects not donation [17:03:16] Its kind of difficult when its the main obstacle to the projects. [17:05:33] hard way is more fun :D [17:05:34] and it's very True: we do not have logistics for distribution of money, id does not flow, we work all as volunteers and we put into our projects that what we can [17:05:54] easy way is for pussys [17:06:01] with lots of $ [17:06:11] Which is astoundingly inefficient and costlier in the larger picture. [17:06:12] no "authority of organization" is used to collect money [17:06:43] Ves when you start talking about your project? [17:06:44] lol [17:06:45] Sigh... I need someone who has a firmer grasp of english to explain this to... [17:07:07] Ves, maybe, but this is the path we choose, it's not a highway and not many people yet go this way [17:07:25] From the amount of misunderstanding thats occured from the simple idea of logistical structures, Im not even going to get into systems engineering for ANYTHING with you guys D: [17:07:40] right [17:07:55] lol [17:08:13] so we had a talk about money, lol [17:08:38] i guess there was nothing els [17:08:51] its like i need $ i need $ [17:08:52] No, I TRIED to have a talk about logistics, you guys went all crazy with your anti-money dogma... [17:09:00] you try talk about $ [17:09:23] but when i ask you 3 times about your projects you dont want to talk about it [17:10:15] " Its kind of difficult when its the main obstacle to the projects." Viper, you need to understand, enclosure is "moral" :| [17:11:02] I try talk about something that people with even a firm grasp of the intricacies of the english language would get confused about, let alone people that cant even get proper sentence structure down... :( [17:11:33] ,quote get 117 [17:11:33] lukas_: Quote #117: "The great moral question of the twenty-first century is this: if all knowing, all culture, all art, all useful information can be costlessly given to everyone at the same price that it is given to anyone; if everyone can have everything, anywhere, all the time, why is it ever moral to exclude anyone? -- Eben Moglen" (added by lukas at 07:07 PM, September 07, 2010) [17:13:04] What do you think Im suggesting the use of money for? Hookers and Blow? Its collection in this sense would be for the sole purpose of the creation and maintenence of a fabrication laboratory devoted solely to the creation of parts/supply of materials to whatever researchers that are eligable to recieve it. [17:13:11] Aka not crackpots and crazies. [17:13:44] `fortune [17:13:45] Viper: Q: Why do firemen wear red suspenders? A: To conform with departmental regulations concerning uniform dress. [17:13:46] Ves, then i guess you have a puzzle to solve, because the language barrier exists in this project, you can for example not try to bother yourself with us and realistic conditions which are here, or maybe find a way to communicate anyway, or... (other options here) [17:14:14] `fortune [17:14:16] Viper: You will be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize... posthumously. [17:14:23] lol [17:14:30] `fortune [17:14:30] Viper: You can do very well in speculation where land or anything to do with dirt is concerned. [17:14:37] `fortune [17:14:37] Viper: If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. -- Mark Twain [17:14:45] :D:D:D [17:15:14] good habit for sure :) [17:18:22] This is seeming more and more pointless by the second. "Realistic Conditions" when there is nothing but idealism here, not even an attempt at trying to figure out what Im trying to explain... TZM was shit, but this place doesnt seem far off if infrastructure suggestions are so quickly dismissed. [17:20:47] Ves your suggestions are ummm against RBOSE values [17:21:54] ,quote random [17:21:54] Viper: Quote #10: "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller" (added by Kebap at 10:55 AM, May 02, 2010) [17:22:19] Ves, i was last days on a workshop, 30 people worked for 4 days building a home from natural construction materials, guess what, the building was very cheap, the land was very cheap because no one other was looking at such land (you know there was no... infrastructure), no one payed a cent for whole curse and the building was mad with borrowed equipment, we had sauna, off-grid electricity, were building something really nice, meet great people, and you know... [17:22:20] there was no money involved, nobody payed anyone, people were even from other countries, i guess you cannot do that with monetary way of thinking because you start with seeing costs all over... doesn't seem to be a good start [17:22:47] course* [17:23:25] made* (sorry for not speaking english so well) [17:24:09] How in the dark pits of Hades' anus do you expect people that are broke to fund their projects? The values you tout are in direct contridiction to what is occuring, only the well-to-do people can finance their projects, what I suggest will even the playing field and allow all research projects that are viable to recieve funding they would otherwise NOT HAVE. Your idealism is insane, you cannot operate outside of the parameters of the system you [17:24:57] Ves read again what lukas said [17:25:38] And monetary guy would say: "But you all worked for free naives!", yes we did! [17:26:00] Hooray, you were able to do ONE THING your way ONE TIME. The exception is not the rule. For that matter, industrial machinery is a HELL of a lot different than building a house. [17:26:14] Hell, you can build a house out of cow shit and straw, for christs sake. [17:27:00] ?? bible [17:27:02] bible[1]: Bible content: Absurdity: 1339 | Injustice: 1280 | Cruelty and Violence: 1018 | Intolerance: 647 | Contradictions: 440 | Number of people killed by god: 2 391 421+ [17:27:04] bible[2]: Annotated bible point by point and much more, here: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com [17:27:06] bible[3]: Details of killing here: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html [17:27:08] bible[4]: http://i44.tinypic.com/28ryxhi.jpg [17:27:47] ? [17:28:07] Ves as you can see you can do it without Donation [17:28:15] No, you cant. [17:28:23] lol [17:28:27] Yes you can [17:28:31] One example does not account for the TRILLIONS of examples counter to it. [17:28:39] For fucks sake, you people are insane. [17:29:01] haha [17:29:39] Ves so if you dont talk about any project only donation you can fuck off [17:29:40] Im going to wait until someone with more than the basest comprehension of the english language gets on, hopefully Ill have less COMPLETELY IGNORING REALITY then :/ [17:29:48] this is wrong place [17:30:01] Viper, you dont even know what the hell Im trying to talk about. [17:30:15] No Donations [17:30:30] what part of "NO Donations" you dont understand? [17:30:51] About as much as your misunderstanding of the English language :/ [17:31:01] listen Ves, if we talk about projects and want to apply scientific perspective then don't confuse people with statements like above, sure is that what i mentioned does not prove that you can build anything without money, but one occurrence is enough to say you cannot claim anymore it's impossible to build something [17:31:03] *** Quits: Antilect (Antilect@RBOSE-uvec0q.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: ) [17:31:10] *** Joins: Antilect (Antilect@RBOSE-uvec0q.tbcn.telia.com) [17:32:15] Lukas, houses are a LOT different than factories, machinery, etc. [17:32:39] To date, there are NO FACTORIES OR MACHINERY built like that. [17:32:51] Ves WHY should we build a factory [17:33:07] for what? [17:33:07] So you can make the shit your researchers need? Havent you listened at all? [17:33:21] What research? [17:33:50] http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/ just few hundreds examples as counterargument [17:33:51] URL Title: Low-tech Magazine [17:34:03] So to ask for money to buld factory to research but WHAT? Maybe you can research it without factory [17:34:17] Well, it depends on the amount of machinery IN said factory and what the capabilities are, but for example, we could have an area of production devoted to making the PCBs that are required for ALL robotics projects. [17:34:34] Lukas, just no. [17:35:11] but why to make PCB's in first place? there is no better, less polluting option? maybe it's worth to think about it? [17:36:22] Well, if your researchers are moving towards an alternative to literally the base of every peice of electronics on the planet, my hat fuckin goes off to those dudes. [17:36:23] http://lab.guilhermemartins.net/2009/05/06/paperduino-prints/ just a beginning but still an interesting idea! made from paper, people must be really insane [17:36:26] Thats quite a task. [17:36:56] Lukas, a PCB is a PCB, that just uses paper instead of silicon and copper... [17:37:08] And wouldnt be useful in any way outside of novelty... [17:37:35] -nobody- Kebap23 has quit FREENODE (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [17:38:16] *** Quits: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-gfibqc.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [17:38:25] http://hackaday.com/2010/12/15/reprapped-transitors/ here guys started to mess up with organic transistors, must be crazy again! [17:38:26] URL Title: RepRapped Transistors - Hack a Day [17:39:14] Okay?? None of what youre linking are anywhere near the level to replace ANYTHING Im talking about. [17:40:15] http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs.php [17:40:16] URL Title: Open Source Ecology - GVCS [17:40:25] what about this? [17:41:26] *** Joins: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-o6d97v.adsl.alicedsl.de) [17:41:31] Isnt OSE For-Profit? [17:41:45] -nobody- Kebap23 has joined on FREENODE [17:42:39] Hell, they even have a BUSINESS CONSULTANT. [17:42:42] i'm not sure how much they become/are today [17:43:45] Yeah, theyve always been for profit, they sell that kit for a pretty penny... [17:44:23] *** Viper is now known as Evil [17:44:26] i am afk [17:44:43] have fun [17:44:49] ty :) [17:45:20] Also, they take donations [17:45:27] A LOT of donations. [17:45:39] yeah, so maybe an alternative for you :) [17:45:41] Which is why they were able to get that shit build in such a short timeframe. [17:45:57] yeah, this one second explanation must be true :) [17:46:01] Or not, seeing as I said they sell their shit for a profit. [17:46:52] Dude, their donations were for the R&D of their machines, they didnt have the obstacle of money in their way, thanks to those EVIL donations, so they were able to get the shit done. [17:47:20] Then they turned around and started selling it for a profit, THAT is the morally questionable decision here, not the decision to take donations. [17:48:08] Ves, make donations on your website, why you need us to ask for that? [17:48:47] Good fucking lord, for the LAST time, the donations are NOT FOR ME, THEY ARE FOR A FUNDING POOL FOR THE GROUP AS A WHOLE, FOR RESEARCH PROJECTS. [17:49:07] we want to go a different way, for many people here it sux what ose does, and we don't want to sux as well [17:49:19] I DONT WANT YOUR GODDAMN MONEY, I just want you to make sense, you insane, insane, crazy asshole :( [17:50:55] thanks, attitude of a nagging christian knocking to one's doors and saying "i want you to believe my shit for your good" doesn't help [17:51:58] You must be 12 types of stupid... Alright, whats your idea for getting large amounts of research done in a respectable timeframe? Dreams and good wishes? [17:53:57] I will try answer this way: [17:55:42] Where you hurry so much? Do you know how to be happy in your life or there will be always faster, stronger, heavier, bigger, etc. objective? Can you be ever satisfied? Do you understand that other people may have other needs and perspectives worth respecting and not be harassed? [17:57:02] Hm, I never knew there were people who didnt need food, water, shelter, electrical power to stay connected with the rest of society and to promote technological growth... [17:57:57] And if you havent noticed, the worlds going south, fast. [17:58:26] So yeah, Id like to have a chance to make it through my lifetime without other people's fuckups affecting it. [17:58:40] Very simple and logical outlook on life. [17:59:18] As opposed to the "We have all the time in the world, lets keep going how we're going, everything will work out fine" idealist outlook everyone else seems to have. [17:59:28] Then use local solutions, let other people copy them easily, they will have no reason to go after you. [17:59:46] Because there totally isnt large scale military action going on, and growing tensions between superpowers. [18:00:02] What is so bad about the south? It was probably from perspective of many of those people "damn west" for a long time... [18:00:10] Rapidly running out of fossil fuels... [18:00:27] People that dont understand figures of speech... [18:01:20] Oh yeah, and the worldwide civil tensions that are slowly exploding... [18:01:59] Silly me to think that such basic needs being met requires some URGENCY in a time of worldwide crisis. [18:02:04] Btw, we do not advocate anything near to doing what we kept doing as civilization for a long time. [18:03:34] Problem is that you dont seem to advocate ANYTHING. [18:03:36] Ves, so what you want to do in such times? Fight? [18:04:10] No, prepare, do what needs to be done. Get a solid base to stand on instead of HOPING youll make it in time, you know? [18:04:17] We do advocate a lot. Free software, Free Hardware, Free Culture and Free Spectrum. [18:04:42] At a leisurely and non-commital pace, mind you. [18:05:09] ?? ownership [18:05:09] ownership[1]: The system of ownership of ideas: [18:05:11] ownership[2]: http://dotsub.com/view/a29b44f7-bf4b-4928-a4a4-7a1359bceb55 [18:05:19] if you would like to learn more [18:05:32] You link the most random shit... You must think Im retarded or something. [18:06:15] this is something what has been an inspiration for us, not any random shit [18:07:41] Ves, i don't get why you visited us if you don't know what we work and tried only convenience us to money? [18:07:53] work on* [18:09:12] Im going to try to explain this clearly: I understand a hell of a lot more about these subjects than most people EVER will. Im not advocating ownership of anything, I never have. What I have said is the simple suggestion of a BADLY NEEDED logistical structure to facilitate better research progress, as well as research expansion, which can ONLY benefit RBOSE as a whole. It is not my fault that you dont understand enough english to make the distin [18:09:17] have to make a difference. [18:10:34] I never said that I knew everything about RBOSE, all I did was suggest a better way of going about getting the things youre doing done. [18:10:40] i see that title could be confusing, it's about Free Software, Free Hardware, Free Culture and Free Spectrum, and the work we do in foss community [18:11:43] This is pointless, you dont even understand what the hell Im saying. I could speak in terms a 3 year old could understand, and none of it would get through. What time do people that have English as a first language get on so I can try again to explain this? [18:12:00] The language barrier, or something, is making this impossible. [18:13:26] Sorry, if my english confuses you, but i did not had a problem to understand you, at least this is what i think, but we have no way to ensure that in both cases. [18:14:29] Thats why Im putting the brakes on here, Im getting frustrated and pissy. [18:14:49] Yeah, that is obvious. [18:17:59] But seriously, I understand egalitarianism, humanism, or whatever you want to call it, practically completely. You completely misunderstand my intentions. [18:18:44] If you need money, make business or find a job, this is what people do in most cases. From my perspective it's arrogant to ask for donations by people who often need to sell their life time in order to live, so the one who asks can not sell it. What is so special about such a guy? [18:21:32] Again, youre going off of some insanely insulting assumptions, and thats all they are, assumptions. You dont understand what I was trying to explain, you dont understand my explainations of explainations, yet you continue to draw conclusions off of literally NO data. How is that logical in ANY way> [18:21:35] ?* [18:23:23] I tried to help. We are clear about money, aren't we? [18:23:42] I doubt it. [18:24:59] Ill be back later, I need to go do some EVIL logistical planning [18:25:27] "We do not accept asking for money or publishing donation buttons." You jumped on chat, we don't know you at all, haven't been working on anything, yet to try to "fix" the basis of our collaboration here so it will fit to your perspective. [18:25:52] yet you try* [18:33:00] *** Quits: Ves (qwebirc@RBOSE-97l8gs.col.wideopenwest.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [18:50:27] Caly, http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Microwave-Transformer-Homemade-Welder/ [18:50:28] URL Title: Build a Microwave Transformer Homemade Stick/Arc Welder [18:55:58] lukas: cool! [18:56:40] today i restored an old garden saw and modified it for dual action [18:56:58] great for the survival/bushcraft kit =P [18:57:07] :D [18:57:53] Caly, have you seen this maybe: http://www.emergencyresponsestudio.org/images.html ? [18:57:54] URL Title: the Emergency Response Studio Project [18:58:05] been working on scrapping an old monocrome offset printing press as well, huge amounts of springs and bearings and gears and stuff [18:58:24] nice :D [18:59:21] i'm still considering different options, not sure yet in which direction to go from the options i'm thinking about [19:00:16] but there are few things clear to me: knowledge and practical experience about how to do just anything - in combination of sharing all of that [19:01:41] we spend with Viper some hours brainstorming constructions of different machines and vehicles, haven't yet decided about the project we want to focus first but we want to try work on some hardware [19:03:02] that ofc. beside our normal focus because we are in process of finding better and better ways to publish what we all work on [19:03:45] ,seen kalken [19:03:45] lukas_: kalken was last seen in #RBOSE 4 hours, 20 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: its hard to solve problems and work with scientific method, if the doors to the knowledge and basis are shut. [19:04:26] oh kalken you were saying something here :D i keep missing you somehow [19:11:25] http://www.smi2le.com/ [19:11:26] URL Title: SMI2LE.COM [19:37:52] *** Quits: Antilect (Antilect@RBOSE-uvec0q.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: ) [19:37:58] *** Joins: Antilect (Antilect@RBOSE-uvec0q.tbcn.telia.com) [20:08:57] *** Joins: Haseldow (haseldow@RBOSE-ohbnia.pp.htv.fi) [20:20:11] *** Quits: Haseldow (haseldow@RBOSE-ohbnia.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [20:26:37] lukas_: hey :D [20:26:46] hi :D [20:26:58] how are you? :) [20:27:00] been working 13 hours without break today :D [20:27:04] just finished [20:27:11] :D [20:27:12] oh :( [20:27:28] yeah, the last is for sure a reason to be happy :) [20:27:37] yeah [20:27:54] but do you not over burn yourself? [20:27:54] just when i thought i was finished, i remembered that 35 more servers needed updating xD [20:28:27] lukas_: ofc i do :D [20:28:32] all the time [20:29:25] over burning sux, you may have impression that all is fine, but it can affect overall health [20:29:43] i have been sick for about 2 weeks, but still go to work [20:29:51] lol [20:30:45] you for sure got seriously motivated to quit the game or they have you in the net ;) [20:31:01] na, i want out [20:31:05] i will get out [20:31:25] just need to pay off some depts first [20:32:07] bu please think about health, i knew people who wanted to do different things, they over exploited themselves and in some cases they really left :( [20:32:13] but* [20:32:31] what disturbes me the most though, is that our society is so sick right now, so people cant even afford to be nice to each other [20:32:45] everything is about this fucking business [20:32:53] people even sell childrens clothes [20:33:04] why not just give them away when one dont need them more [20:33:12] if everybody just did that... [20:33:38] and people are selling shit all over the place just for a few bucks. Its crazy [20:33:57] yeah, we keep giving everything away, including toys, and it keeps going back, i'm sure it caused a lot of smile on kids faces, fukk money [20:34:26] and most seem to fail with the mindset "everybody else is doing business, so why should i not do business" [20:34:29] lol [20:35:00] except family and close friends. One never does business with them... for some strange reason... [20:35:06] ... [20:35:23] yeah, everybody is cheating so why shouldn't i? same goes for military crap :( [20:35:54] lukas_: i can not talk to you anymore. you have to pay me 10 bucks if we shall talk more. [20:35:57] xD [20:36:30] :x [20:36:43] does that seem like a good way to think? lol [20:37:11] this world is crazy. too crazy for me [20:37:24] or maybe i'm the crazy one... [20:37:33] i would like to see world where many people know how to extend the idea of family to other people without that stupid idea of blood relation [20:37:43] yeah [20:38:01] me and fat will probably work a lot on the karma-site when we move in together [20:38:21] maybe that can atleast help people change their mindset [20:38:26] ...but not like in the video from stefbot "my home, my rules" lol [20:38:36] lol [20:38:52] have you seen that one? [20:39:06] no i have not [20:39:11] you got a link? [20:39:19] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMOAbWcpKQ [20:39:20] You4Tube 2[Title] The State as Family 2[Category] News 2[Duration] 0:06:20 2[Views] 6286 2[Rating] 4.90 2[Uploaded] 2011-05-18 2[Description] Why it is so hard to get people to think rationally about the state. From Freedomain Radio, the largest and most popular philosophy show in the world - http://www.freedomainradio.com Most kids want stuff -- toys, candy, electronics -- and of course they want their parents to pay for it. They [20:40:06] i had yesterday a video for you, not sure if you got it? it was from eG8 [20:40:24] btw. i heard some wolf had gone into some neighbourhood and apparently had "a very territorial behaviour". I could not help to wonder what he thought of the peoples gardens he went into [20:40:37] and the people "owning" them [20:40:44] lol [20:41:03] lol [20:42:03] we had one summer an issue with a bunch if pumas which escape from zoo, they tried to catch them for a month over few states, we have even a family joke based on that ;) [20:42:45] kalken, the video yesterday was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Nl2Xnmd5g [20:42:46] You4Tube 2[Title] eG8 - interventions of John Perry Barlow and Jérémie Zimmermann - Tuesday, May 24th 2011 2[Category] Nonprofit 2[Duration] 0:36:26 2[Views] 1832 2[Rating] 5.00 2[Uploaded] 2011-05-25 2[Description] "You cannot own free speech" - John Perry Barlow, Electronic Frontier Foundation "On n'est pas des voleurs" - Jérémie Zimmermann, La Quadrature du Net eG8 - Plenary IV - Intellectual Property and the Culture Economy [20:51:54] http://idpc.net/publications/failure-regime-selected-publications [20:51:55] URL Title: Selected publications: The failures of the drug control regime | International Drug Policy Consortium [21:00:35] lukas_: tnx [21:00:41] i will watch this in a bit [21:01:36] *** Joins: dirt (dirt@RBOSE-cn22bv.pool.telekom.hu) [21:02:37] haha grateful dead <3 [21:02:49] *** Parts: dirt (dirt@RBOSE-cn22bv.pool.telekom.hu) [21:03:40] yw :) [21:10:49] the problem with the other guys arguments seem to be that they are more based on folklore and traditional business thinking (with units), and does not consider the fact that information sharing is not limited by these laws at all [21:11:46] and the problem not eg controll of internet, but how to secure their living tomorrow and forth [21:13:52] “Man has come out of the jungle—where there wasn’t enough, where he had to fight for it— and he’s built an entire ethic around not having enough. Now, to be able to shift that ethic —and the whole motivational pattern connected with it— is a very difficult thing.” ~ Richard Alpert [21:17:10] good quote [21:19:47] kalken, http://littlebrotherbigmouth.tumblr.com/post/924951425/man-has-come-out-of-the-jungle-where-there-wasnt lol [21:19:48] URL Title: Little Brother, Big Mouth [21:20:10] hehe [21:20:11] ,quote add Man has come out of the jungle - where there wasn't enough, where he had to fight for it - and he's built an entire ethic around not having enough. Now, to be able to shift that ethic - and the whole motivational pattern connected with it - is a very difficult thing. ~ Richard Alpert [21:20:12] lukas_: The operation succeeded. Quote #173 added. [21:22:47] 21.47 into that video [21:22:52] he owns the place [21:23:10] (the one you posted lukas) [21:23:39] checking [21:24:14] maybe even start with 19.00 and frth [21:24:16] *forth [21:25:51] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Nl2Xnmd5g#t=20m44 [21:25:52] You4Tube 2[Title] eG8 - interventions of John Perry Barlow and Jérémie Zimmermann - Tuesday, May 24th 2011 2[Category] Nonprofit 2[Duration] 0:36:26 2[Views] 1832 2[Rating] 5.00 2[Uploaded] 2011-05-25 2[Description] "You cannot own free speech" - John Perry Barlow, Electronic Frontier Foundation "On n'est pas des voleurs" - Jérémie Zimmermann, La Quadrature du Net eG8 - Plenary IV - Intellectual Property and the Culture Economy [21:28:14] yeah, i know, i keep it on disk, sorry but for me it's sick, control and money, they don't even understand what Barlow is talking about [21:29:41] haha, exactly my thought [21:29:51] their perspective is totally different [21:30:11] they need their companies to continue growing exponentially [21:30:13] lol [21:32:27] http://www.impossiblehamster.org/ [21:32:28] URL Title: The Impossible Hamster Club [21:32:31] lack of growth for them means collapse because they are living in traps of inflation and interests they have to pay back to someone [21:33:09] the expectation for exponential growth will fail anyway. Because the world that is expected to grow forever is limited [21:33:15] thats the irony of it all [21:34:20] i dont really care about the copyright-stuff anymore. Everything i need is available with other licenses [21:34:33] so using them makes this debate obsolete xD [21:35:35] i would not dream of installing spotify even. the client is loaded with crap, commercials and other stuff, and the music is ONLY music released under some big lable [21:36:35] kalken, except if you think you will always find a new fuel to burn or explode, new planet, new people to take advantage of, new liberties to take away, new brands to do magic tricks in front of eyes of the population, then it makes sens, doesn't it.... [21:36:38] but ofc kalken [21:37:05] lukas: heh, right.. =/ [21:38:11] lukas_: haha yes. When we can not breath the air, and drink the water anymore. There will for sure be a big business flourishing by selling clean water and air... [21:38:36] i'm just not sure thats the reality i want so see [21:38:43] *to see [21:39:26] but sure its good for the growth of the economy [21:39:33] crazy world [21:39:37] crazy people [21:39:40] cd.. [21:40:26] Caly: lol [21:41:06] hehe [21:41:15] multitasking fail [21:41:32] with water it's the reality becoming now, i need to buy atm water to drink, it's commodity and maybe it will become a privilege, with air very similarly, it's a reason for many people travel to some far way islands, they cannot dive anymore in lakes near by or lay down on sand without warring about some poisons [21:41:38] trying to set up PulseAudio so i can get my USB headset to work in Deboan.. Mumble time =P [21:41:53] hehe [21:41:58] oh, nice Caly :) [21:42:14] i'm thinking about switching to debian as well [21:44:46] i run debian testing here [21:44:53] works like a charm [21:46:33] lukas_: yeah. those things i mentioned is really happening now. And most businessmen seem to think that its great opportunities for expanding... [21:46:43] i wonder what their children thinks [21:47:43] and if we fuck up the ground water around us, we will soon get the connection to the environment back [21:48:22] whether business is bad or good [21:53:58] kalken, i watched yesterday this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9os1GFuWJ0 many great points about environment (personally i do not agree with the points about violence there on the end of the video) [21:53:59] You4Tube 2[Title] Derrick Jensen - Endgame 2[Category] Nonprofit 2[Duration] 1:20:43 2[Views] 2212 2[Rating] 5.00 2[Uploaded] 2011-03-04 2[Description] http://www.derrickjensen.org/ [21:56:45] i tested debian squeezy yesterday as desktop, everything worked like a charm, i need to take some effort to switch [21:57:15] =) [21:57:22] that or Trisquel ofc [21:58:01] on trisquel my gpu was blinking every 10 seconds somehow [21:58:27] wierd [21:58:47] i like Deboan though, seems stable, but needs a lillte more work thatn buntu [22:01:15] lukas: started looking at that endgame video, but i disagree that no civilization could be sustainable, but i like the emphasis on slipped by supremesis [22:01:24] *slipped-by-premesis [22:06:34] Caly, yeah, i personally have a problem with defining sustainability in general, but i like many points of this guy, for example how he defined production [22:07:28] sure [22:09:54] i know i would like to live in a green place, and work on technology which respects nature, zero pollution, i spend currently most of my life on messing with technologies, i love to learn how things work, primitivism is not for me, but abuse of people and nature is not for me as well [22:11:22] it's like on the image you pasted yesterday about composting human waste, as designers we should make the cycles close if we take something [22:11:50] *take something away from nature [22:13:07] http://www.prisonplanet.com/ron-paul-house-floor-speech-republic-almost-completely-dead.html [22:13:08] URL Title: Ron Paul House Floor Speech: Republic Almost Completely Dead [22:25:45] to unblock that took a while, there you got with a direct link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-olNr4UuVqY [22:25:46] You4Tube 2[Title] The Last Nail - Floor Speech May 25 2011 2[Category] News 2[Duration] 0:05:08 2[Views] 65447 2[Rating] 4.97 2[Uploaded] 2011-05-25 2[Description] The Last Nail The last nail is being driven into the coffin of the American Republic. Yet, Congress remains in total denial as our liberties are rapidly fading before our eyes. The process is propelled by unwarranted fear and ignorance as to the true meaning [22:27:27] net without advertisement and with advertisement looks like two different worlds, i'm shocked each time i see the difference [22:33:57] Caly, U.S. == Nazi ? [22:35:06] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV57aZmKORk [22:35:07] You4Tube 2[Title] The Nazis - A Warning From History | Episode 1 | Part 1 2[Category] Education 2[Duration] 0:15:00 2[Views] 23509 2[Rating] 4.78 2[Uploaded] 2011-01-02 2[Description] This video has no description. [22:37:25] lukas: but ofc [22:37:40] sweden is now a nazi nation too [22:38:07] the new social law in practice is "Arbeit macht frei" [22:46:00] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Todd_%28biologist%29 [22:46:01] URL Title: John Todd (biologist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [22:46:26] "is a biologist working in what is sometimes considered the general field of ecological design, in that his ideas often involve applications that become the basis of alternative technologies. His principal professional interests have included solving problems of food production and waste-water processing. " [22:53:09] http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/john-todd-wins-buckminster-fuller-challenge.php [22:53:11] URL Title: Dr. John Todd Wins Buckminster Fuller Challenge Award : TreeHugger [23:12:39] http://www.toddecological.com/eco-machines/ [23:12:40] URL Title: JTED: About Eco-Machines [23:14:05] *** Joins: JoshStrobl (qwebirc@RBOSE-68b.ovv.19.72.IP) [23:15:28] Hello peeps [23:18:38] hi joppos [23:18:43] * hi JoshStrobl [23:18:48] How are you Caly? [23:20:32] quite fine [23:20:49] been working a bit on my survival/bushcrafting kit today =) [23:20:58] nice [23:21:05] and been scrapping some machinery and salvageing good parts. [23:21:38] one can never have too many cogs, chains, belts, springs, motors and ballbearings in stock =P [23:21:58] not to mention the gazillion bolts, screws and nuts [23:22:00] :) [23:22:18] For me, I can never have too many knives :D [23:22:28] i scrapped a large format printer the other week, and got almost all parts i need to build a CNC machine =) [23:22:36] sweet [23:22:57] JoshStrobl: oh, i have a few too, i'm dreaming of getting a Khukri knife [23:23:28] would be sooo sweet for bushcrafting [23:24:06] indeed [23:24:14] Most of mine are KA-Bars [23:24:35] My Dad gave me a shit load of them when he was in the military. [23:24:39] Sharp fuckers lemme tell ya [23:24:58] cool, any pics? [23:25:08] JoshStrobl: this one i want http://nepalkhukurihouse.com/291/16-Inch-American-Eagle-Gripper-Handle-Khukuri.php [23:25:09] URL Title: Gurkha Khukuri House -16 Inch American Eagle Gripper Handle Khukuri - Nepalese Kukri [23:25:26] gonna cost me about 1500sek [23:25:40] like... perhaps 200usd [23:25:43] No pics yet, I should take some... And nice! [23:25:58] 125 [23:26:20] 10mm thick 16" blade... just saying.. [23:26:35] NOT 16" total.. just the blade.. [23:27:11] might sound a bit excessive, but it's mainly for use as axe/machete [23:27:36] if i get one i don't need to have both axe, machete and big knife [23:28:06] it weight about the same as a decent bush crafting axe. [23:30:28] :) [23:32:20] I've been rolling out code for EvoVid quite a bit this week. [23:33:04] cool [23:58:50] .c [23:58:50] *** Parts: DNS (DNS777@NetAdmin.RBOSE) [23:58:50] *** Joins: DNS (DNS777@NetAdmin.RBOSE) [23:58:54] oooh [23:59:04] whats up [23:59:52] the sky, whats down?