[00:02:04] *** Quits: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-3hm79f.adsl.hansenet.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [00:02:06] *** Joins: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-amkgmo.adsl.hansenet.de) [00:04:42] -nobody- Kebap23 has joined on FREENODE [00:04:43] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Kebap23 [00:17:08] *** Joins: kalken (default@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) [00:21:09] *** Quits: Evil (Viper@NetAdmin.RBOSE) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) [00:21:11] -nobody- Out`Of`Control has quit FREENODE (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 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[09:09:09] *** Joins: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) [09:09:16] -nobody- Kebap21 has joined on FREENODE [09:16:17] -nobody- Kebap23 has quit FREENODE (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:14:32] *** Joins: kalken (default@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) [11:15:25] *** Joins: DNS (DNS777@RBOSE-b1mtfs.superkabel.de) [11:16:10] !morning [11:16:12] ACTION wishes DNS a Good Morning. Have a great start in this day :-D [12:09:29] *** Joins: shaolin (shaolin@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) [12:09:36] *** shaolin is now known as Antilect [12:19:20] *** Quits: Antilect (shaolin@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) (Connection closed) [12:24:28] -nobody- Calyp has joined on FREENODE [12:24:29] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Calyp [12:24:40] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-invcc4.cust.telenor.se) [12:28:19] *** Joins: shaolin (shaolin@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) [12:29:36] *** Quits: shaolin (shaolin@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) (Connection closed) [13:20:43] http://i.imgur.com/wrVEo.jpg [13:21:20] *** Joins: kman (kman@RBOSE-hhm.9h0.94.93.IP) [14:05:16] *** Joins: Cyclo (Cyclo@RBOSE-pdk.uv3.156.78.IP) [14:36:45] *** Joins: lukas (lukas@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [14:40:36] !poke DNS [14:40:37] ACTION pokes DNS in #RBOSE a bit with a good intention [14:42:00] Kebap: are you around? [14:48:09] yeah [14:50:24] Kebap: you have something on your german id cards like "employee name", or something like that? could you tell what is that exactly? [14:50:38] "employee name"? [14:51:04] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalausweis [14:51:06] Title:  German identity card - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org) [14:51:11] yeah, i heard there is something like that when you consider meanings of words [14:52:17] well you could translate personal as personnel [14:52:30] while ausweis still means id [14:52:34] ah, yeah! that's it, thanks [14:52:56] no problemo [14:53:26] i'm totally not into esoteric stuff, but have you seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tScuHwVtRcY ? [14:53:27] Title:  UNGRIP (Full Length Movie) - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) [14:53:27] it has other meanings too, but i think i heard of that conspiracy before [14:54:11] no lukas, neither kymatica or esoteric agenda [14:54:41] yeah, once Julius recommended to me that a lot, i could not stand 15 minutes and switched it off [14:55:32] but this video is different, you may skip the folklore and check the data there [14:55:48] gets really interesting from my perspective [14:57:32] this guy quit a lot "the system" and he tells about practical side, he explains what is corporation as a person and how to stop be played [14:59:10] he explains the law from his perspective and court cases he was involved in [15:00:25] funny to watch and inspiring [15:06:53] gnudamnit u know that over 5500 ppl are arrested in us because of occupy movemetn? [15:07:39] WHAT [15:07:40] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRI8CS5aIuc [15:07:44] Title:  PROTECT US - police target streamer - Occupy The Movie - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) [15:09:28] DNS, did you talk with Viper within last 12h ? [15:09:37] n0 [15:09:44] i had a internet failout [15:09:52] over last night [15:11:02] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux then check out this, NSA developed code which is build into every linux kernel since 2.6.0 [15:11:04] Title:  Security-Enhanced Linux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at secure.wikimedia.org) [15:14:58] "I've used Linux continuously since its earliest days (I'm number 119 in the Linux Counter) so I'm in a good position to distinguish "complex" from "incomprehensible." The problem with SELinux is not that it's complex but that its documentation is incomprehensible to anyone that hasn't taken a class in it. In particular it is hard to imagine how the man pages for chcon, restorecon, runcon, secon, fixfiles, and [15:15:00] SELinux itself could be less useful. Someone needs to explain to Dan Walsh, the author of this miserable documentation, how to write documentation." [15:15:40] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Talk:Security-Enhanced_Linux check this out too DNS [15:15:43] Title:  Talk:Security-Enhanced Linux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at secure.wikimedia.org) [15:40:01] Kebap: i hear that GEMA blocked all the ungrip videos in Germany, lol, they made there own music in that video O_o [15:41:15] yeah they block a lot of videos because of music and shit, but you can use firefox addon proxytube to automatically unblock the videos via proxy [15:42:14] ok, thanks for the hint! [15:47:41] Kebap: btw, when i told some words last time about fa$cism, i clearly meant the Mussolini's description of it, as the merge of corp and gov power = corporatism, i guess you know the quote, so that's why i see as the ruling strong (as you put it) system [15:48:02] see it* [16:02:04] DNS, nice video, is there more comming? [16:02:43] i mean full length version? [16:02:50] its in making [16:03:08] probably released in the beginning of the nwext year [16:04:06] but check http://www.occupythemovie.net/ [16:04:10] Title:  Occupy the Movie (at www.occupythemovie.net) [16:04:56] so hm maybe its already done now lol idk [16:05:04] im not the producer [16:05:09] lol [16:14:48] "Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy" ~ Plato -- now i get why they say first "we bring you democracy" [16:14:57] DNS ^ lol [16:17:47] *** Quits: Cyclo (Cyclo@RBOSE-pdk.uv3.156.78.IP) (Quit: Lämnar) [16:37:12] 0_o [16:39:52] "There is NO chance that a dictatorship arises out of a REAL democracy" ~ DNS [16:56:30] DNS: you mean anarchism :-) [17:05:19] n0 not really [17:05:29] but a democracy we dont know of so far [17:15:31] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HENAp6URj-I [17:15:34] Title:  CHANNEL LIVE - IS IT A DREAM? - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) [17:20:28] -nobody- Calyp has quit FREENODE (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [17:24:19] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE.org) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [17:37:18] -nobody- Calyp has joined on FREENODE [17:37:20] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Calyp [17:37:26] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-2hs0ah.cust.telenor.se) [17:41:42] *** Quits: kman (kman@RBOSE-hhm.9h0.94.93.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [17:54:41] http://www.occupythemovie.net/ [17:54:45] Title:  Occupy the Movie (at www.occupythemovie.net) [18:43:31] *** Quits: Key (supybot@root.password) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [18:43:31] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE.org) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [18:43:31] *** Quits: SoNeta (piespy@rbose.IRC.people) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [18:43:31] *** Quits: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-cpg1rk.org) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [18:43:31] *** Quits: nobody (UFO@Unidentified.Flying.Object) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [18:43:31] *** Quits: kalken (default@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [18:43:31] *** Quits: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-amkgmo.adsl.hansenet.de) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [18:43:31] *** Quits: Viper (Viper@NetAdmin.RBOSE) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [19:00:26] *** Joins: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-amkgmo.adsl.hansenet.de) [19:00:26] *** Joins: kalken (default@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) [19:00:26] *** Joins: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-cpg1rk.org) [19:01:10] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-2hs0ah.cust.telenor.se) [19:03:39] *** Joins: SoNeta (piespy@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [19:03:40] *** RBOSE sets mode: +v SoNeta [19:04:06] *** Joins: Viper (Viper@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [19:04:23] hi folks [19:06:14] hi wb [19:06:15] :D [19:07:07] ty [19:25:07] hi there [19:25:55] hi caly :) posted the occupymovie link just about an hour be4 [19:25:56] :D [19:26:16] ah, hehe [19:26:25] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnFVYewkWEY [19:26:31] `title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnFVYewkWEY [19:26:44] oh i did not start nobody [19:26:56] *** Joins: nobody (UFO@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [19:27:02] *** RBOSE sets mode: +o nobody [19:27:21] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnFVYewkWEY [19:27:27] `title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnFVYewkWEY [19:27:47] -nobody- nobody has joined on FREENODE [19:27:49] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +o nobody [19:28:03] Title:  Shocking Video: Blue bra girl brutally beaten by Egypt military - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) [19:28:10] Viper: Shocking Video: Blue bra girl brutally beaten by Egypt military - YouTube [19:36:20] Caly did you see http://www.sott.net/articles/show/239010-The-Complete-List-of-All-the-Phones-With-Carrier-IQ-Spyware-Installed [19:36:21] Title:  The Complete List of All the Phones With Carrier IQ Spyware Installed -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net (at www.sott.net) [19:37:21] !seen Fat64 [19:37:23] lukas, Fat64 (mig@RBOSE-q6iqr1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) was last seen quitting #RBOSE 1 day 1 hour 38 minutes ago (17.12. 16:58) stating "Connection closed" after spending 1 day 18 hours 28 minutes there. [19:46:21] nasty [19:48:20] yea last thing i saw that some1 was writing with his accoutn that hes hacked o_0 [19:54:14] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office O_o [19:54:18] Title:  Information Awareness Office - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at secure.wikimedia.org) [19:55:15] the logo is like p0rn [19:55:19] jk [19:55:26] but its fucking my eyes [19:56:05] :D lol [19:56:19] it does indeed have a super scary look to it [19:57:22] comotion_: it's hard to even think they really made it, lol [19:58:15] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:Human-id-at-a-distance.gif <--- LOL, i guess for _domestic_ they will create protection instead [19:58:19] Title:  File:Human-id-at-a-distance.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at secure.wikimedia.org) [19:58:27] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:IAO-logo.png [19:58:30] Title:  File:IAO-logo.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at secure.wikimedia.org) [19:58:41] on what wiki pages that logo is used LOL [19:59:46] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/User:NWO_not_conspiracy lol [19:59:48] Title:  User:NWO not conspiracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at secure.wikimedia.org) [20:02:09] Following public criticism that the development and deployment of these technologies could potentially lead to a mass surveillance system, the IAO was defunded by Congress in 2003. However, several IAO projects continued to be funded, and merely run under different names.[3][4][5][6] [20:02:25] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hknVoAoyy-k [20:02:27] Title:  "Nobody Canna Cross It" Twanging (Refix Video) - Dj Powa - YouTube (at www.youtube.com) [20:10:31] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE.org) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [20:10:31] *** Quits: SoNeta (piespy@rbose.IRC.people) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [20:10:31] *** Quits: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-cpg1rk.org) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [20:10:31] *** Quits: nobody (UFO@Unidentified.Flying.Object) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [20:10:31] *** Quits: kalken (default@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [20:10:31] *** Quits: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-amkgmo.adsl.hansenet.de) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [20:10:31] *** Quits: Viper (Viper@NetAdmin.RBOSE) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [20:16:26] *** Joins: kalken (default@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) [20:20:16] *** Joins: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-amkgmo.adsl.hansenet.de) [20:20:16] *** Joins: nobody (UFO@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [20:20:16] *** Joins: SoNeta (piespy@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [20:20:16] *** Joins: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-cpg1rk.org) [20:20:16] *** Joins: Key (supybot@RBOSE-qve.k3a.168.192.IP) [20:21:28] *** Joins: Viper (Viper@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [20:21:36] -nobody- Out`Of`Control has joined on FREENODE [20:21:38] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Out`Of`Control [20:21:39] `services identify [20:21:40] Viper: Error: You don't have the admin capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified. [20:22:16] `services identify [20:22:16] Viper: The operation succeeded. [20:22:16] *** RBOSE sets mode: +o nobody [20:22:26] *** Quits: SoNeta (piespy@RBOSE-gkfu2h) (Connection closed) [20:22:28] *** Joins: SoNeta (piespy@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [20:22:28] *** RBOSE sets mode: +v SoNeta [20:24:16] \0/ [20:32:21] Kebap nice song haha [20:46:42] *** Quits: Key (supybot@RBOSE-qve.k3a.168.192.IP) (Connection closed) [20:46:42] *** Quits: nobody (UFO@Unidentified.Flying.Object) (Connection closed) [20:46:42] *** Quits: SoNeta (piespy@rbose.IRC.people) (Connection closed) [20:46:54] *** Joins: Key (supybot@RBOSE-qve.k3a.168.192.IP) [20:46:55] *** Joins: nobody (UFO@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [20:47:03] *** RBOSE sets mode: +o nobody [20:47:48] folks anyone research what selinux do? [21:03:09] acl stuff mostly iirc [21:03:45] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux#Features [21:03:47] Title:  Security-Enhanced Linux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org) [21:04:04] scrdcow its build into my system and made by NSA [21:04:08] I haven't fiddled with it thou [21:04:20] Viper: yes? [21:04:22] scrdcow and every app need it [21:04:40] what system and apps are you running? [21:04:47] i wonder how can i get rid of it [21:04:50] ubuntu [21:05:10] ah, dunno. but if it's already installed and set up good, then it's a good thing. [21:05:12] imo [21:05:13] scrdcow search in synaptic packet manager for selinux [21:05:18] Viper: yes? [21:05:30] i am sure you have it too [21:05:36] nope [21:05:53] just check [21:06:08] I don't use selinux [21:06:18] scrdcow just check your system for it [21:06:36] scrdcow i don't use it too. But its build into kernel [21:07:40] yes ofcourse. but I don't have it on/use it. [21:07:55] scrdcow ? [21:08:33] scrdcow i would like to remove it from my system [21:08:37] Viper: if it is compiled into kernel or as modules I don't use it. [21:09:02] scrdcow i think its controlling all apps [21:09:04] Viper: build a kernel without it or remove modules (if it's built or can be built as such) [21:09:19] Viper: yes, it does acl stuff. added security. [21:09:27] scrdcow i just try and as i see all apps need it [21:10:38] selinux can control every app in linux [21:10:45] ? [21:11:15] yes, that's what it's for. to have mandatory acl. [21:11:27] to enhance security [21:11:32] its a nsa backdoor [21:11:36] haha [21:11:36] i guess [21:11:40] NSA made it [21:11:42] no :-) [21:11:43] yes? [21:12:04] YEs [21:12:07] it's been around for ages, the code has been in the kernel for a long time. [21:12:11] !g nsa.gov selinux [21:12:13] 73,500 results | Security-Enhanced Linux - NSA/CSS @ http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/ | [PDF] Securing The X Window System With SELinux @ http://www.nsa.gov/research/_files/publications/securing_xwindow.pdf | Contact Us - NSA/CSS @ http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/contacts/index.shtml [21:12:16] it's only funded by nsa etc. [21:12:17] Title:  Security-Enhanced Linux - NSA/CSS (at www.nsa.gov) [21:12:35] This is the Debian packe for libselinux, and it is built from sources obtained from: [21:12:36] http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/code/download5.cfm. [21:12:46] it being a backdoor for nsa to use == conspiracy theory imo [21:13:01] scrdcow NSA is made to spy on people nothing els [21:13:28] scrdcow or you think nsa care about your privacy? [21:13:59] I believe in linux and it's open nature. [21:14:22] scrdcow did you hear about carrier IQ? [21:14:22] yeah open abuse is cool :D [21:14:40] !slap lukas [21:14:40] ACTION slaps lukas a bit around #RBOSE with a good heart [21:15:00] Viper: carrier IQ? [21:15:12] 1 200 000 died in Palestine and most have no fukking idea how an when [21:15:22] but it's open, DNS [21:15:25] yes a spy tool that log everything you do in android [21:15:44] and can take full control of your android [21:16:01] made by NSA too [21:16:09] i am sure its GPLed [21:16:10] lol [21:16:42] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/30/smartphone_spying_app/ [21:16:45] Title:  BUSTED! Secret app on millions of phones logs key taps • The Register (at www.theregister.co.uk) [21:17:14] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/12/01/ios_has_carrier_iq_client/ [21:17:17] Title:  BUSTED TWO: Carrier IQ monitor-ware on iPhones too? • The Register (at www.theregister.co.uk) [21:17:35] Viper: hello conspiracy [21:18:03] Viper: it's been in the mainline kernel since 2.6 [21:18:04] conspiracy? [21:18:10] Viper: so it's definately gpled [21:18:12] scrdcow so? [21:18:16] http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-16/carrier-iq-response-on-privacy-falls-short-u-s-senators-say.html [21:18:18] Title:  Carrier IQ Response on Privacy Falls Short, U.S. Senators Say - Businessweek (at www.businessweek.com) [21:18:35] scdcow i can build app to spy on you and gpl it. Or create a virus and gpl it [21:18:37] Viper: oh. the carrier iq.. sorry. I thought you still meant selinux. [21:18:42] if its GPL does not make it good [21:19:11] http://gizmodo.com/5868732/the-complete-list-of-all-the-phones-with-carrier-iq-spyware-installed [21:19:13] Title:  The Complete List of All the Phones With Carrier IQ Spyware Installed (at gizmodo.com) [21:19:41] scrdcow carrier IQ can filter out your sms and calles so you wont even get it [21:19:42] Viper: well, no. but it can be checked, and also it can have different uses. [21:20:27] scrdcow YES thats why iask to find out wtf this selinux do [21:20:47] Viper: as told. acl stuff [21:21:11] scrdcow umm [21:21:12] Viper: it's been around for ages, included in the mainline kernel since 2.6, so it's been around. [21:21:33] Viper: development is hosted by nsa, but others are helping out aswell. [21:21:35] scrdcow so because it was there its not spy app? [21:22:29] Viper: because it's been around for such a long time and in the mainline kernel for such a long time... if there was something fishy about it i'm pretty sure it would be found out by now. [21:22:59] scrdcow people use windows. No more comments [21:23:00] lol [21:23:12] not all [21:23:16] internet evolved from darpanet = fishy stuf going on, gotta by spying on us and promoting military actions ;-) [21:23:27] Viper: but windows isn't free software. [21:23:29] scrdcow no its not true [21:24:09] tcp/ip not darpanet [21:24:55] Viper: if it was some new shit, a project not well known and not that active (many spying eyes). it ofcourse could be something going on. but this I only think is conspiracy theories far out.. hhe [21:24:59] hehe* [21:25:28] people are so much naiv and trust without checking [21:25:29] oh sorry. -d [21:25:29] hehe [21:25:30] arpanet. [21:25:43] but it was a project by darpa. [21:26:12] viper: developers arent people? [21:26:21] hehe [21:26:24] DNS ok most not all :D [21:26:38] `f [21:26:39] Viper: Generosity and perfection are your everlasting goals. [21:26:48] `f [21:26:49] Viper: Zounds! I was never so bethumped with words since I first called my brother's father dad. -- William Shakespeare, "Kind John" [21:27:26] `f [21:27:27] DNS: Lady Luck brings added income today. Lady friend takes it away tonight. [21:27:34] rofl [21:27:47] whahaha [21:28:39] Viper: well... being around for so lon gtime and in the mainline kernel, a _very_ active project == trust with checking [21:29:09] scrdcow i am 99% sure selinux is carrier IQ for gnu/linux [21:29:25] Viper: well then check the code. if you don't trust all other developers. [21:29:43] scrdcow you are correct i don't trust all developers [21:29:50] because it's been around for such a long time and in the mainline kernel for such a long time... if there was something fishy about it i'm pretty sure it would be found out by now -- scrdcow, viper, you guys talk about bible? lol [21:30:38] scrdcow special the one payed by NSA :D [21:30:43] haha lukas [21:30:47] lukas: the fishyness about christianity/the bible have been fonud out by many ;-) [21:31:01] Viper: mm, the others doesn't check the code at all.... [21:31:22] Viper: sorry but I think your seriously way out there on this one ;-D [21:31:25] scrdcow i try its all encrypted [21:31:38] lukas: i couldnt find what kind of programming language the bible has so far [21:31:57] not readable ^^ [21:31:59] lol [21:32:05] lol [21:32:13] Viper: what is encrypted? [21:33:23] scrdcow check your system coreutils need selinux selinux can control everything in gnu/linux [21:33:38] Viper: as told I don't run/use selinux. [21:33:51] scrdcow did you search your system ifit have selinux? [21:34:20] Viper: I already know. but I did check and didn't have selinux stuff installed except some dev-shit. [21:34:24] scrdcow just check synaptic packag manager [21:34:35] scrdcow so you do have some? [21:34:39] installed [21:35:09] i check even debain have selinux [21:35:11] btw scrdcow: assumption that something is good because it has been long around, whatever it is, without research, is a fallacy https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_fallacies [21:35:13] Title:  List of fallacies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at secure.wikimedia.org) [21:35:26] ok, alot of stuff depended on libselinux1. but i'm not using selinux. haven't set it up etc. [21:35:42] scrdcow whole system use it. [21:35:52] look what depend on selinux [21:35:57] Viper: you don't know that yet [21:35:58] everything here depend on it [21:36:11] lukas: it could be, but this is only what I think in this case. [21:36:12] lukas if everything need it. then i guess [21:36:24] lukas: I don't think it is without research. [21:36:39] Viper: depend != use [21:37:00] Viper: "The Debian packaged Linux kernels have had SELinux support compiled in (but disabled by default) since version 2.6.9" [21:37:01] ok guys, you both seam to read it's code already so what i can say ;) [21:37:02] scrdcow but if i can't run gnome without it. then gnoe is using it? [21:37:08] its* [21:37:30] Viper: no, the package only depend on it. because some people would like to use it. [21:37:53] Viper: they don't have two setups with packages, the ones with selinux and the ones without. (atleast for debian) [21:38:17] i need without selinux [21:38:47] lukas: hehe no I have not. but I trust all other developers that have checkd through the selinux code for so many years :-) [21:39:14] scrdcow: how you know that they check? [21:39:20] Viper: then you would have to recompile all packages and change control-file etc to not depend on libselinux1. [21:39:27] maybe everybody else believes others checked [21:39:46] lukas: if they actually work on the code. but sure, it's not impossible. but I think it pretty unlikely. [21:40:11] ok how i can check what exactly selinux do? [21:40:12] do you know this story http://bsd.slashdot.org/story/10/12/15/004235/fbi-alleged-to-have-backdoored-openbsds-ipsec-stack ? [21:40:15] Title:  FBI Alleged To Have Backdoored OpenBSD's IPSEC Stack - Slashdot (at bsd.slashdot.org) [21:40:29] Viper: read on their site or "really do", you ofcourse have to read the code. [21:41:05] 10 years code and it was not easy for them to decide actually what is going on, lol [21:41:28] scrdcow what site on NSA? "We build backdoor to spy on you" [21:41:30] ok, maybe I sound to harsh. I just think it's very unlikely. [21:41:30] lol [21:41:41] Viper: selinuxproject.org [21:42:38] even firefox need selinux [21:42:45] I put it in the same leage as the people that think that TOR is controlled by some gov agency (NSA or such). [21:42:50] ;-) [21:42:51] scrdcow: Error: "-)" is not a valid command. [21:43:11] scrdcow yes TOR is controlled by gov [21:43:19] i have link [21:43:33] Viper: it's needed because the acl stuff it does happens in apps. so the apps need to be able to talk to the kernel throught the selinuxlib. [21:44:19] Viper: ok, well... then your on your own with your ideas ;-) I have some extra aluminium foil if you need some ;-) [21:44:21] scrdcow thats in manual [21:44:44] scrdcow here you can read about tor http://sheddingbikes.com/posts/1293530004.html [21:44:46] Title:  Shedding Bikes: Programming Culture And Philosophy (at sheddingbikes.com) [21:46:07] Viper: what's in manual? [21:46:18] [21:43] Viper: it's needed because the acl stuff it does happens in apps. so the apps need to be able to talk to the kernel throught the selinuxlib. [21:46:31] Viper: what? [21:46:41] you got it from that wiki page? [21:47:21] no [21:49:21] Viper: the selinux kernel stuff does acl stuff and to do that it needs to be able to control the apps so as to do more deeper access control. [21:49:26] scrdcow its deactivated in my system. But every app can't work without it. Sounds really strange to me [21:50:11] or that apps query stuff and enforce acess control themselves. [21:50:23] Viper: they can, only the packages depend on it. [21:50:46] scrdcow all apps need it firefox/compiz/gnome [21:51:07] Viper: if you would compile them without selinux support. you wouldn't need that dependency. but since some people want to use selinux for stronger security they ofcourse have it compiled in. [21:51:37] Viper: it the same with whatever... like a graphical app maybe doesn't need libpng to function, but if you want to look at png, you need it compiled in. [21:51:39] scrdcow i did not ask for selinux but its build in debian (no GUI) and in Ubuntu [21:52:12] brb [21:55:53] *** Joins: shaolin (shaolin@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) [21:56:05] *** Quits: shaolin (shaolin@RBOSE-pjrgdm.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving) [21:57:26] back [21:57:49] wb [21:58:50] Viper: you have to read up on selinux, I don't know much about how it is designed etc. only know that it does acl stuff that is dependant on the apps enforcing stuff. [21:59:13] so as to have better security. [21:59:48] "SELinux can potentially control all users, processes and daemons with very precise specifications which activities are allowed for every member. However, it is mostly used to confine daemons like database engines or web servers that have more clearly defined data access and activity rights. A confined daemon that becomes compromised is thus limited in the harm it can do. Ordinary user processes often run in the unconfined domain, not restricted by SELinux b [22:05:22] from the tor-article you posted... [22:05:56] "Alright, maybe that can be fixed, but then you read about a semi-secret volunteer group collecting data from 12 ISPs and handing it to the government. This Project Vigilant apparently has 600-1500 volunteers who are all hackers collecting and analyzing data and handing it straight to the government without user consent." tor isn't about making data secure. so it has no application to tor. if you want to ensure your data is protected you have to encrypt it. [22:07:37] the other issues are non-issues imo. for ex controlling nodes and that shit. you can choose what nodes you want to use. and they also need to control 10% off all nodes to be able to calculate who you ae. [22:07:57] atleast that's what said by one of their developers I met in 2005. [22:09:22] so theoretically switching on many machines to the tor network could simply do it [22:09:41] didn't know about project vigilant thou, have to check it out :-) [22:09:52] lukas: do what? [22:10:19] "they also need to control 10%" [22:10:28] lukas: ah. well, maybe. [22:10:56] i found arch linux have no SE Linux in kernel [22:11:05] other option is compile by your own [22:11:25] thats what i got from #fsf [22:11:29] what about libre kernel, Viper? [22:11:40] but there I also believe in the collectiveness of all users and developers. if they would find out, ips can be blocked, or you can do it yourself. [22:11:44] i guess it have se linux too [22:12:21] oh guys, we don't do much with guess and believes :D [22:12:40] Viper: any source based dist will do to easier recompile eveything. but seriously, I think it's a waste of time. there are more serious issues to deal with, atleast that's what I think :-D [22:13:10] scrdcow privacy for me on 1 place [22:13:24] Viper: no but you have to make choices based on assumptions. [22:13:26] i don't want NSA to know that i watch porn [22:13:27] LOL [22:13:42] Viper: pretty sure they don't. :-P [22:13:52] (atleast not through selinux) [22:14:01] hahaha [22:14:58] Viper: yes, but... this issue.. ohwell. I just thinks it's a load of conspiracy garbage. but I have said that already ;-) [22:15:38] scrdcow why its compsiracy? Because nsa did not said its a spy tool or backdoor? [22:15:43] there are more serious threats to my/others privacy that I actually do know about is happening. [22:16:07] Viper: as told. because I believe in free software and the very active kernel development. [22:16:19] *** Joins: Slush-_ (Slush-@RBOSE-kh9mjp.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) [22:16:49] but.. just get rid of it you feel the need to. [22:16:54] I don't atleast. [22:16:59] scrdcow NSA made only SPY/backdoor tools for windows [22:17:09] ok? [22:17:23] BUT they love so much GNU/Linux and made not spy but a safe tool? [22:17:36] i don't buy it [22:17:38] sorry [22:20:45] oh. new info.. [22:20:48] "In October 2011, a research team from the French engineering school Esiea claimed to have discovered a way to compromise the Tor network by decrypting communication passing over it.[30][31] The technique they describe requires creating a map of Tor network nodes, controlling one third of them and then acquiring their encryption keys and algorithm seeds. Then, using these known keys and seeds, they claim the ability to decrypt two encryption layers out of th [22:21:18] yeah, i read that [22:21:51] Viper: it's not about that. you don't really follow what i'm saying. I believe that if something was included in the mainline kernel, since 2.6, and also by a project that's been widely known and out in the wild for many years prior to that... [22:22:43] Viper: I bet that it would have been found out by now. I can't be 100% sure, but i'm confident enough to not care that much about it and recompile my system without it. [22:23:07] but if you feel you need to, please do. [22:23:40] scrdcow: one of my best friends once said "if it's there, it must be good" and that was total bulshit, similarly if you ask believers about god's killing they answer "what? well if he did it that it means it mus be good", good killing WTF? [22:23:52] in what context? [22:24:47] lukas: but that's differently. if someone would find out there is actually spying-code inside the selinux part of the kernel, then it's bad. not good. [22:24:52] in context of "I believe that if something was included in the mainline kernel, since 2.6, (...)" [22:25:30] lukas: but this is about wheter there is, if I need to be conspisious about it, if I shall devote a tremendous amount of my time to really read the code, or if I shall switch distro or put alot of time into building all new packages without it. [22:25:43] lukas: I say, no, I don't think I need. [22:26:14] sure, that would be even worse if the code would be discovered, but still creation of assumption out of believe is wrong for oneself [22:26:23] scrdcow goal of NSA spy on people collect data. They are payed to do that. Not make linux better OS [22:26:27] lukas: I was reffering to your "if it's there, it must be good" what? and where? I don't follow in what context your friend said that. [22:26:44] Viper: the use selinux themselves. [22:26:48] they* [22:27:05] scrdcow to spy their own workers [22:27:39] .... [22:27:46] ohwell, I have to do other stuff. [22:27:54] nice talking to you. [22:28:42] have good time [22:28:49] lukas: you have to make assumptions for alot of shit to be able to keep on living [23:01:02] *** Joins: kman (kman@RBOSE-hhm.9h0.94.93.IP) [23:36:24] heh SELinux is shit, but it's alittle paranoid to assume it's NSAs tool for ownage [23:37:05] comotion_ nsa made it [23:37:08] as far as I see it, does nothing to increase real security of system, just pain in the ass [23:37:38] sure, they made it, they are the most powerful security organ in the usa [23:38:15] it's where most skilled cryptographers and security researchers end up [23:40:56] complexity is the enemy of security [23:41:43] comotion_ Yes correct, they build only spy/backdoor into M$ [23:42:07] and cisco gear, and and [23:42:39] i got to read up on "depending on a package" and the difference between SElinux and selinuxlib [23:42:40] but that's not the point, they were also heavily involved in developing DSA and RSA [23:43:21] so does it mean we can't trust nything they make? pretty hard to get rid of nsa influences in linux kernel at this point [23:43:26] comotion_ all i know NSA is payed to spy on people and collect data [23:43:41] comotion_ i see archlinux don't have it [23:44:26] that is cool but that's just because they disabled that part in the kernel kompile [23:44:26] Viper: still comotion_ makes good points about RSA for example, you use that every time when ssh to other server [23:44:39] lukas: exactly [23:44:51] ubuntu employs apparmour as you know, none too fond of that one either [23:45:01] yeah [23:45:22] yes but SSH do not control user/app rights [23:45:31] Viper: point about kernel is NSA's reach into our kernels does not begin nor end with SElinux [23:46:17] comotion_ maybe so i try to remove most of that [23:46:46] can you? there was some FUD a year ago about IPSec being tainted too [23:47:14] which means by paranoid extension that you can't trust BSD either [23:47:59] don't get me wrong, it's good that you remove everything you don't need, and if you personally feel that no NSA code should be trusted, by all means rip that out too [23:48:09] comotion_ i do not trust BSD why would i? [23:48:24] no idea, why trust anything or anybody [23:48:29] word [23:49:24] write your own OS, be incompatible with everything, but super secure [23:49:34] Viper, i did not read the code, but maybe even the vm uses it as well, so you can have an environment which does not allow to access other resources of your machine, i would say that this feature would be rather desireable [23:49:36] (until they discover your first bug) [23:50:16] lukas: now there is something... unfortunately this whole vm ideology does nothing to alleviate security concerns [23:50:46] in fact, virtual machines are just convenience, but also contribute to pulverize security measures [23:51:57] cause people thing "oh, it's a different (virtual) machine, so (intuitively) whatever it does is isolated [23:52:03] s/thing/think/ [23:54:35] i personally don't know yet what to think about it, but i think it's just great that Viper seeks answers and asks new questions :) [23:56:21] i agree [23:56:34] am as paranoid as the next guy [23:56:48] -nobody- Kebap21 has quit FREENODE (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [23:56:49] but, we all have to live with (an unknown level of) compromise [23:56:50] *** Quits: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-amkgmo.adsl.hansenet.de) (Connection closed)