[00:19:04] *** Joins: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-qrgv64.adsl.hansenet.de) [00:20:34] -nobody- Kebap has joined on FREENODE [00:24:05] -nobody- Kebap23 has quit FREENODE (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [00:26:36] *** Quits: Kebap23 (Max@RBOSE-0jcsuf.adsl.hansenet.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [00:36:54] *** Joins: Rauno (Rots@RBOSE-cc2381.adsl.alicedsl.de) [00:43:40] *** Quits: Rots00 (Rots@RBOSE-6va6fn.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [02:25:21] -nobody- Viper has joined on FREENODE [02:25:22] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Viper [02:34:05] *** Joins: Rots (Rots@RBOSE-cc2381.adsl.alicedsl.de) [02:34:35] *** Rots is now known as Guest22510 [02:36:28] *** Joins: Kebap23 (Max@RBOSE-qrgv64.adsl.hansenet.de) [02:40:34] *** Quits: Rauno (Rots@RBOSE-cc2381.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [02:41:26] *** Quits: dLrG (DeLrge@RBOSE-bpkesh.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [02:41:37] *** Quits: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-qrgv64.adsl.hansenet.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [03:04:50] we should have a blender weekend with rbose [03:05:18] where we start off saturday with a few simple exercises (complete beginner?) [03:05:53] maybe discuss what we learned over mumble afterwards, then on sunday perhaps run some Speed 3D sessions [03:06:10] speed 3d as in, a person suggests an entity or scene to create under lets say 60 minutes [03:06:50] :) [03:25:53] well [03:25:58] I created AN EVENT on Faacbook [03:39:29] ,op Fat64 [03:39:29] Fat64: Error: You don't have the #RBOSE,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified. [03:50:07] ,time [03:50:07] Fat64: 02:51 AM, March 08, 2012 [03:50:15] ,time GMT+1 [03:50:15] Fat64: GMT+1 [03:50:19] OK. [03:50:21] ,time WAT [03:50:22] Fat64: WAT [03:50:24] ,LOL WAT [03:50:25] Fat64: Error: "LOL" is not a valid command. [03:50:31] ,time \'whoami [03:50:31] Fat64: \'whoami [03:50:48] !help all [03:51:48] hey Fat64 :D [03:51:55] heeeeeey evil! :D [03:52:02] I dont know the time ;T [03:52:08] blender weekend sounds cool [03:52:09] some servers say 03:52, some say 04:52 [03:52:11] yeah? [03:52:12] you game? [03:52:15] `time [03:52:15] Evil: 03:52 AM, March 08, 2012 [03:52:24] I was thinking first weekend in April [03:52:28] 7th and 8th [03:52:53] nothing pretencious, just gather some people who would like to learn blender [03:52:53] rBOTse is on UTC [03:52:54] Evil: Error: "is" is not a valid command. [03:52:57] ok [03:53:06] rBOTse time Yes [03:53:06] Fat64: Yes [03:53:19] rBOTse time But can you handle 5Colours? [03:53:19] Fat64: Error: 'can' is not a valid floating point number. [03:53:26] i was playing with blender they change some in new version [03:53:36] I like the new version [03:53:42] a looooot more, how bout you? [03:54:29] what version are you running? [03:54:55] 2.62! [03:55:03] :> [03:55:12] oh i have old one on this pc [03:55:17] new one on other pc [03:55:26] 2.49 B [03:55:28] lol [03:55:34] hoho [03:56:02] they made quite large changes to the way you work with the ui in some version [03:56:05] cant remember which [03:56:18] so I hope we all can play on the same version, sort of [03:56:29] yeah i can't figure out how to add object or a shape in new version [03:56:32] ah [03:56:44] in old one you press space and go into menu [03:56:47] I'm gonna try aptitude install see which version I get [03:56:59] ok [03:57:06] 2.49.2 [03:57:13] try to update mine [03:57:15] lucid/universe [03:57:26] I will just download the latest and go from there during the blender weekend [04:12:10] *** Joins: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) [04:16:42] *** Quits: woyna (woyna@RBOSE-ukl.r5g.133.79.IP) (pms.rbose.org fat64.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: DNS (DNS777@search.for.freedom) (pms.rbose.org fat64.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: comotion (preston@RBOSE-rse.n3l.36.158.IP) (pms.rbose.org fat64.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: rwx (ludens@RBOSE-3o1kru.noisetor.net) (pms.rbose.org fat64.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: lukas (lukas@NetAdmin.RBOSE) (pms.rbose.org fat64.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: kalken (default@RBOSE-otidpg.bredband.comhem.se) (pms.rbose.org fat64.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: rBOTse (rBOTse@RBOSE-gkfu2h) (pms.rbose.org fat64.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: Kebap23 (Max@RBOSE-qrgv64.adsl.hansenet.de) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: SoNeta (piespy@rbose.IRC.people) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-cpg1rk.org) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: comotion_ (preston@RBOSE-garav9.u.bitbit.net) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: nobody (UFO@Unidentified.Flying.Object) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: Hakufu (jonte@RBOSE-ocqjmp.bredband.comhem.se) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: Fat64 (herp@RBOSE-qf4ip9.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [04:16:42] *** Quits: Evil (Viper@NetAdmin.RBOSE) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [04:18:52] *** Joins: Fat64 (herp@RBOSE-qf4ip9.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) [04:18:52] *** Joins: nobody (UFO@Unidentified.Flying.Object) [04:18:52] *** Joins: SoNeta (piespy@rbose.IRC.people) [04:18:52] *** Joins: Evil (Viper@NetAdmin.RBOSE) [04:18:52] *** Joins: comotion_ (preston@RBOSE-garav9.u.bitbit.net) [04:18:52] *** Joins: scrdcow (scrdcow@RBOSE-cpg1rk.org) [04:18:52] *** Joins: Kebap23 (Max@RBOSE-qrgv64.adsl.hansenet.de) [04:18:52] *** Joins: Hakufu (jonte@RBOSE-ocqjmp.bredband.comhem.se) [04:29:26] *** Joins: DNS (DNS777@search.for.freedom) [04:29:26] *** Joins: lukas (lukas@NetAdmin.RBOSE) [04:29:26] *** Joins: rBOTse (rBOTse@RBOSE-gkfu2h) [04:29:26] *** Joins: kalken (default@RBOSE-otidpg.bredband.comhem.se) [04:29:26] *** Joins: rwx (ludens@RBOSE-3o1kru.noisetor.net) [04:29:26] *** Joins: comotion (preston@RBOSE-rse.n3l.36.158.IP) [04:29:26] *** Joins: woyna (woyna@RBOSE-ukl.r5g.133.79.IP) [07:31:17] *** Quits: Guest22510 (Rots@RBOSE-cc2381.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Quit: Lahkun) [10:29:48] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging [10:29:49] URL Title: Rubber duck debugging - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [10:59:22] hi :) [10:59:34] Fat64: nice idea with blender :) [11:09:12] i think there is a BIG NEED for free and sane, nicely done, animated stories for children [11:10:23] maybe one day we could prepare a whole framework with blender with a set of characters, sceneries, etc. so people could produce stories easily [11:11:07] if you ever find this interesting, count me in [11:24:48] *** Quits: Hakufu (jonte@RBOSE-ocqjmp.bredband.comhem.se) (Connection closed) [15:26:38] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-m1l.foo.143.190.IP) [15:27:50] Hello 0/ [15:52:24] hi DZR :) [15:52:49] http://eebu.earthshipeurope.org/ [15:52:50] Hello lukas :) [15:52:51] URL Title: Welcome to EEBU [15:53:06] holadiy0 [15:54:15] ,la http://eebu.earthshipeurope.org/ Check if they have open source eartships. I got this information from a person who claims they do have! [15:54:18] lukas: The operation succeeded. [16:00:02] lukas: can i add a link with ,la to a catergory? [16:00:08] *category [16:00:11] lukas - interestin - I know quite a few people who were/are involved with the Brighton earthship [16:00:59] Brighton Uk that is.... [16:01:59] ,la http://essej.net/sooperlooper/ Needs compile/packaging [16:02:01] lol [16:02:01] DNS777: The operation succeeded. [16:02:03] :D [16:02:21] From what I've learnt from looking at their Earthship, speaking to them and reading on the web....... [16:02:47] DNS777: not yet, this feature is a prototype, but i think the database for this purpose is there, just had no time yet to code the irc part [16:02:58] np :) [16:03:24] DZR: please continue :) [16:04:04] ... they take a hell of a lot of labour to build [16:04:25] 'inflating' the tyres with soil [16:05:00] practically always done with volunteer (sometimes paying for courses) labour [16:05:43] The Brighton earship has got a pellet burning heating stove [16:05:53] (wood pellet) [16:06:21] DZR, still it can be very energy efficient because we humans rarely use over 200W :) so if one has the time probably this is a nice option, but probably we could figure out something to compress soil in tires [16:06:37] Apparently not the best building design for colder climates [16:06:56] can you say why you think so? [16:07:01] Insulation is more important than Thermal Mass [16:07:15] So a Passiv Haus type build is better [16:07:52] you could be right, we need a model to compare that [16:07:52] 'Insulate well and control the ventilation (besst with heat exchangers on the ventilation) [16:08:23] The professional builders who were involved in the build went on to do this type of work [16:08:34] although it was mainly retrofitting [16:08:55] bit hard to retrofit a house as a earship .... :D [16:09:16] :) [16:09:30] It was wisdom I got from people very clued up on eco-building stuff. [16:10:22] I bet, but i still would love to see equations which we can share with others, need to spend some time on that one day :) [16:11:23] even if not read directly, these could be used in some scripts so people could run calculations to addjust for their specific needs [16:11:44] With Passv Haus type builds you can get away with minimal heating [16:11:45] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house [16:11:46] URL Title: Passive house - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [16:12:06] Heating is the big energy consumer [16:12:16] (water or air) [16:13:02] Brighton Earthship was built under strict supeervision from the American bloke who pioneered the idea [16:13:04] yeah, i'm interested already a lot in that :) and was doing some math to see how big the costs are, both in terms of energy, but as well monetary [16:13:21] He insisted they have certain design elements [16:14:00] During construction it became clear that some things didnt completely make sense. [16:14:27] Given improving technologies and the difference in climate between Uk and the deserts of America [16:14:32] Are you speaking about Reynolds? [16:14:36] yeah [16:14:39] ok [16:15:25] Still there are many possible variables... [16:15:33] so not sure how to model [16:15:55] yeah [16:15:57] I think that it is common knowledge amoungst people who do eco builds in cold climates [16:16:13] sounds like these guys made a great lesson :) [16:16:28] that insulation is more important than thermal mass [16:16:47] I helped do a build at the Lammas project [16:17:13] was this guys latest house [16:17:15] http://www.simondale.net/house/index.htm [16:17:16] URL Title: A Low Impact Woodland Home [16:17:41] nice, i was watching a video about Lammas :D [16:18:13] yeah, and know this site already, very nice dessigns :) [16:20:05] http://www.lammas.org.uk/ecovillage/images/openday2.JPG [16:20:16] was the build I was helping with [16:21:06] Straw bale roof (with pond lining sheet and earth ontop) [16:21:15] North wall straw bale [16:21:37] South wall Glass, with a glass house outside [16:21:57] DZR: there are common mistakes as well as i have seen, not easy to find without messurements, for example in many places people set buildings to political south (12:00), not the local time, and not mentioning the winter noon (most constructions was done in summer time, and not everybody knows on winter there is almost ±22° of difference... [16:22:08] awesome! [16:22:30] He was hoping the rammed earth floor would act as some heat mass [16:22:35] thermal mass [16:22:49] He did have an old wood stove [16:22:57] I love the way he builds [16:23:10] All wood taken from trees on site [16:23:29] Stone from the ground where he dug the hole for the house [16:23:38] The house is in a hole [16:23:50] but stands away from the soil [16:23:56] to stop the water [16:24:01] yeah, i love this apraoch :) [16:24:26] The roof spans the gap between house and the wall of the hole [16:24:58] His old house cost £3000 and was a similar build [16:25:40] does this building has rooms or is it one big open space? [16:25:43] I think the pond liner he used for this one was higher quality (longer lasting) so this house may have cost a little bit more?? [16:26:14] It has one wall from the centre of the building that goes north [16:26:23] east side is the kitchen [16:26:30] west is the bedroom [16:26:44] there are no doors [16:26:48] i think i got it :) [16:26:53] there is an upstairs in the bedroom [16:27:09] This is only his tempory house :) [16:27:15] Built in two months [16:27:22] nice [16:27:53] He is going to build something bigger next door. Then this wiil be for his guests / visitors [16:28:45] i know i need doors when kids are growing up, lol [16:28:59] you got kids :) [16:29:26] they with you at freelab ?? [16:30:45] yeah, will be :) we did not move yet to be there 100%, winter crossed a bit our plans [16:31:19] what shelter you got there now??? [16:33:02] there are a few buildings, some repairs are required on the living one, the others have to me modifed more in order to accomodate visitors and people working on the project [16:33:52] but it's all in good shape i wood say :) want to convert into passive construction to highest possible degree [16:34:23] You seen this http://www.shelterpub.com/_home_work/HW-book.html [16:34:24] URL Title: Home Work: Handbuilt Shelter is a magnificent photo book of owner built homes and sustainable alternative architecture using natural building materials [16:34:37] awe inspring self builds [16:34:46] make you house a piece of art [16:34:51] in a week or two we will try to make a meeting, i called today some nice people and invted them initially :) [16:35:19] thanks :) [16:35:30] Who owns the land?? you? [16:36:13] yes [16:36:56] or i should say, the king, lol, you don't really own a land on this planet [16:37:02] :) [16:37:14] stop paying taxes and they will try to take away [16:37:22] Land rights is one of my focuses [16:37:32] Has been for a long time [16:38:30] DZR, i'm confused a lot with ownership, it seems a lot to be a matter who got access to something faster, goes about everthing [16:38:36] My home is built with Passivhaus in mind [16:38:56] All property is theft :D [16:39:09] .... or is it?????? [16:39:56] the way the world is now most propert (originally) comes from theft anyway [16:40:03] land property that is [16:40:56] not sure because of few things: some people act in a destructive manner, they only demand, we are here much more into use value than exchange value, but not many people nowadays are thinking like that yet [16:41:00] and all physical things come from land (or air or water) [16:42:17] It was Europe that began the systematic carving up of land and the concept of land as property [16:42:33] to many cultures this was alien [16:42:42] we beat this concept into them [16:42:54] yeah [16:42:54] stole their lands [16:43:26] here in the UK there were commn rights to land use [16:43:34] this was taken by force [16:43:45] (some not many still exist) [16:43:50] http://taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/tax-free-states.htm uhm i just see washington has no income tax hm lol [16:43:51] URL Title: States Without an Income Tax - Seven States Have No Income Tax [16:44:23] common rights to land [16:44:29] use [16:44:39] yeah, common land, a concept which evolved into common wealth, and later probably behind Creative Commons :) [16:44:47] yeah :) [16:45:25] The English civil war, The Diggers, The Leveller etc. tells the storey [16:46:02] DZR: i'm not sure what to think about it now, because some people just want to destroy stuff, or take by force whatever they want, calling that freedom, i'm rather looking for something liek a social GPL [16:46:03] Im involved with this network http://www.tlio.org.uk/land_rights [16:46:06] URL Title: Land Rights | The Land is Ours [16:46:41] Think we need to find the commons again [16:46:45] ...in land [16:46:50] yeah :) [16:47:04] :) [16:47:27] In the UK there is a community that burnt the deeds to their land [16:47:50] interesting :) [16:48:37] that was a long tiime ago..... [16:48:44] have you seen UNGRIP? a guy from Canada made a documentary about the land ownership, funny and inspiring story [16:48:48] and they have problems now [16:48:59] no will look...... [16:51:32] ...they have problems transfering houses to new owners - not sure if they thought through why they were burning the deeds and what they truely believed [16:51:41] hi [16:51:52] DZR: so you can be online under linux now, no problem? [16:52:05] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tScuHwVtRcY there is a bit of esoteric stuff which can be easily skipped if one does not like it, but the video has a nice messgae [16:52:06] You4Tube 2[Title] UNGRIP (Full Length Movie) 2[Category] Education 2[Duration] 1:11:12 2[Views] 92516 2[Rating] 4.94 2[Uploaded] 2011-09-30 2[Description] From the creators of Esoteric Agenda (www.esotericagenda.net) and Kymatica (www.talismanicidols.org), UNGRIP penetrates the illusions and delusions of the legal system with direct relation to the psychology of humanity. Inspired by the story of rob in the pagé family, as well as [16:52:18] scrdcow.... yeah but I'm not [16:52:34] need to transfer my thunderbird data into Linux..... [16:52:36] ?? windows [16:52:36] windows: format c: [16:52:45] got to duck out will be back [16:53:00] DZR: ok, just checking :-) [16:53:25] i need to go too, still a lot of stuff here to be done [16:53:31] I need to eat breaky [16:57:53] *** Joins: iamme1110 (iamme@RBOSE-j4u.9h9.77.41.IP) [17:00:49] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-m1l.foo.143.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [18:01:58] *** Quits: iamme1110 (iamme@RBOSE-j4u.9h9.77.41.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [18:18:57] I need to eat format C [18:19:39] -nobody- Calyp has joined on FREENODE [18:19:40] -nobody- Calyp has quit FREENODE (Changing host) [18:19:41] -nobody- Calyp has joined on FREENODE [18:19:43] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Calyp [18:19:53] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-9m8rfj.cust.telenor.se) [18:22:18] hi Caly :) [18:22:49] I'm just so white and nerdy [18:23:16] hi Kebap23 :D [18:23:33] Caly, http://eebu.earthshipeurope.org/ have a look when you will have some time [18:23:35] URL Title: Welcome to EEBU [18:23:49] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-m1l.foo.143.190.IP) [18:32:27] .... back for a minute then I escape to Linux!!!!! [18:32:55] DZR: "escape to"? [18:33:05] ESCAPE [18:33:08] THE VOID [18:33:09] most of us here are running nothing BUT linux [18:33:16] hi lukas [18:33:16] Caly from Windows [18:36:25] DZR: no swearing in here, please! [18:36:30] ;) [18:36:35] :D [18:36:40] xD [18:36:57] :P [18:37:01] lukas: I've been sick for several days, if you've missed me [18:37:14] lukas: i liked your idea of animated stories for children :D [18:37:57] Caly, glad you are back :) [18:38:03] Fat64: great :) [18:38:23] I hope that some peepers will join \o/ great session will be had [18:39:48] lukas UNGRIP looks like a freeman of the land type thing [18:40:03] I find that stuff interesting [18:40:21] and it brings up lots of interesting questions [18:40:54] ......but generally it is trying to play with the legal system [18:41:01] which is a mental construct [18:41:13] =] [18:41:21] I'm more interested in things that are real [18:41:23] economics [18:41:36] resource management [18:41:40] I want resource libraries [18:41:42] the production of goods [18:41:45] ad hoc [18:41:48] :) [18:41:49] flat production lines [18:42:02] uncommercial off the shelves [18:43:34] from what i hear in that movie all laws have origin with pope and the most important agreement wa signed "under knife", so if you don't belive in pope or apply invalidity of contracts signed under force, then what we get... ? [18:44:41] yeah roman law is the basis for most all law [18:44:52] Im readin 5000 years of debt [18:44:59] very interesting book [18:45:51] goes into the thinking behind debt, money etc. [18:46:18] lots of stuff there about Roman law, greek law, barbarian law codes etc. [18:46:53] http://cuhistory.blogspot.com/2011/09/book-review-debt-first-5000-years-by.html [18:46:55] URL Title: Credit Union History: Book Review - Debt: The First 5,000 Years by David Graeber [18:47:06] cool beans [18:47:28] OK migrate to Linux procedure initiating.... be back soon..... [18:55:31] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-m1l.foo.143.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [18:56:20] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-13r.foo.143.190.IP) [18:56:30] :D [18:56:43] this is always an exiting moment :D will he escape the matrik$? [18:56:52] *holds thumbs* [19:01:56] eeek back on windows... cant escape..... must try harder..... [19:02:29] harder, it shall try! [19:04:26] Just read that review of 5000 years... very good (and relitively brief) review [19:32:24] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-13r.foo.143.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [19:39:18] -nobody- darren has joined on FREENODE [19:39:59] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> That done it.... almost.... just gotta figure out where the thunderbird data lives here in Mint [19:45:01] :) [19:49:12] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> trying to connect to RBOSE servers [19:49:14] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> * Connecting to irc.rbose.org (213.112.251.80) port 6677... [19:49:15] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> * Connection failed. Error: Connection refused [19:49:17] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> Cycling to next server in RBOSE... [19:49:18] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> * Looking up irc.rbose.org [19:49:26] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> etc. etc. [19:49:28] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> ???? [19:50:14] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> got some error pages from the wiki too. [19:50:24] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> although appears to be OK now.... [19:52:43] 13<14Kebap@FREENODE13> darren: try port 6670 [19:52:54] 13<14Kebap@FREENODE13> for irc [19:53:01] 13<14Kebap@FREENODE13> which error do you see in the wiki? [19:53:59] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-3ed.foo.143.190.IP) [19:54:16] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> not getting them now.... something like.....this page is unavailable [19:55:04] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> Kebap ..... I should try harder with my reading ..... wrong channel and cant remember error message... me bad [19:55:06] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> :) [19:55:11] 10<04darren@FREENODE10> Oh and thanks [19:55:22] 13<14Kebap@FREENODE13> hey no worry :D [19:55:24] -nobody- darren has left on FREENODE ("Leaving") [19:56:38] :) [20:03:31] DZR: The connection ports for all servers are: 6670-6675 [20:04:26] rbose servers??? [20:04:34] yes [20:04:42] http://rbose.org/wiki/IRC/Servers [20:04:43] URL Title: IRC/Servers - RBOSE [20:04:54] xchat gives new network setting as 6667 [20:05:02] thats why I got confused.... [20:05:40] yeah I did look there but misread.... I was trying to do three things at the same time :) [20:05:49] :) [20:08:36] lukas [20:08:42] yes? [20:08:45] getting back to property briefly [20:09:06] a academic land economist gave a talk I was at [20:09:44] He explained how the creation of the concept of property led to land becoming a commodity [20:09:55] that could be traded on markets [20:11:11] it de personalises the relationship. The owner may well just be an distant investor with no interest except short term profit. [20:11:33] for sure [20:11:39] That ties in nicely with the review of 5000 years of debt I just posted... :) [20:12:19] Most people consider security in their home = ownership of the property (within our mental construct of a legal system) [20:12:28] i seen a great movie called "Let's make money" - there was a good illustration on land market modern mechanics [20:12:42] this may often be the case although the rules of the game favour the rich.... [20:13:16] .... see the continuing indigenous land grabs in 'poor' nations [20:13:42] Its all down to money with backing of violence (and/or law) [20:13:54] law = monopoly of violence [20:14:02] or is that state???? [20:14:51] read the review, sounds interesting [20:15:07] obviously rights / laws are ignored/changed where money talks highly enough [20:15:34] Caly yeah I'm really enjoying the book. Half way through it...... [20:15:52] yes, i must say that for me the concept of security pays a major role, there is a rule in space design which i find important: that everybody has a space, even smallest one but not touchable by others, like on a spaceship, where he/she can stay alone when desires to [20:16:55] Yeah I'm sure personal space is important and security of such but despite what we are brought up to believe this does not have to equal property [20:17:05] .... having said that maybe it does???? [20:17:19] I like to remain open to all ideas [20:17:54] Always interested to discover more.... especially experiences..... [20:18:04] this is why I like 5000 years of debt [20:18:09] :) [20:26:06] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-3ed.foo.143.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [20:34:31] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-vvu.foo.143.190.IP) [20:39:12] *** Quits: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [20:49:02] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-vvu.foo.143.190.IP) (Quit: Leaving) [20:54:39] *** Joins: Hakufu (jonte@RBOSE-ocqjmp.bredband.comhem.se) [20:55:13] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-m1l.foo.143.190.IP) [21:16:22] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-m1l.foo.143.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [23:01:58] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-lqn.foo.143.190.IP) [23:47:33] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE.org) (Quit: Leaving) [23:47:34] -nobody- Calyp has quit FREENODE (Quit: Leaving) [23:50:39] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-lqn.foo.143.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [23:59:33] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-m1l.foo.143.190.IP)