[00:20:09] *** Joins: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-ohlgda.adsl.alicedsl.de) [00:27:40] *** Quits: Kebap23 (Max@RBOSE-br2124.adsl.hansenet.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [00:48:36] *** Joins: gtom (tom@RBOSE-a2hinp.gtom.eu) [00:49:06] *** gtom is now known as Guest76889 [06:50:53] -nobody- magnetron has joined on FREENODE [07:32:02] *** Joins: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) [07:38:11] hi everyone :D [07:41:01] chrono: nice website! [07:42:17] ,la https://apollo.open-resource.org/ "a mobile, self-sustainable, independent and highly-experimental Hackerspace, visiting cities and places without a resident, local Hackerspace, to offer local hackers the possibility to work together on exciting projects and we all can share fun, food, resources, knowledge and experience." [07:42:19] lukas: The operation succeeded. [09:03:16] elf-pavlik: around? [09:07:04] oh BTW i look forward to join an event in FreeLab in may! =) ping lukas -- do you mean anything specific? i ask because someone in poland seems whom we contacted already and who shows up not a smallest portion of good will to solve the problem, but quite opposite (like registering freelab all over the net, seems to be mirroring a lot of our work, but with some weird agenda, and under the same [09:07:04] name, but for fee in design [09:09:35] elf-pavlik: more personal question: what is your traveling method? seems you travel really a lot and i wonder if you maybe have been able to cut costs on this? [09:50:30] lukas: thanks :) [09:51:26] lukas: elf-pavlik's main method of travel is hitchhiking, I think [09:56:41] :) [09:59:28] thanks :) i need to go off for a while, see you later, have a great time everyone [10:05:46] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-1ebq2k.mobileonline.telia.com) [10:05:51] -nobody- Calyp has joined on FREENODE [10:05:52] -nobody- Calyp has quit FREENODE (Changing host) [10:05:54] -nobody- Calyp has joined on FREENODE [10:05:55] -nobody- mode change by ChanServ on FREENODE: +v Calyp [10:06:27] morning folks [10:07:15] heyho [10:08:43] calling me a ho? you fucking fuck... [10:08:46] ,9 [10:08:46] Caly: Error: "9" is not a valid command. [10:08:54] ;) [10:09:27] zup chrono [10:11:01] lukas: on #hackerspace-pl (freenode) i can see FreeLab ... and they have a website here: https://freelabpl.wordpress.com/ plus facebook page and facbook event in may... [10:11:03] URL Title: #FreeLab | Laboratorium WolnoÅ›ci [10:11:29] oh, also looks like a riseup group: https://we.riseup.net/freelab [10:11:32] URL Title: FreeLab - Groups - we.riseup.net [10:11:51] yeah elf-pavlik they did that knowing lukas allready had started a place with that name. Morons. [10:12:39] nah, don't sweat it, I was in the kitchen making tea :) so my silence was not a "reaction" :) [10:12:58] Caly: i'll still take some time to help with clarifying situation without fallbacking to calling each other names ;) [10:14:13] well, they're not really free, so... [10:14:42] lukas should rename to it to RealFreeLab [10:15:53] or using a more specific name, what the main focus of lukas lab's work is about [10:16:20] free is good in a general way but is it a lab about freeness? [10:16:24] *** Quits: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [10:18:48] no, it's a lab that is free to use to make free technologies [10:22:37] free from monetary exchange. [10:22:45] but then again, sin't our goal to make all labs free to use? apollo is a freelab too in that way [10:24:58] i dismissed the member-fee concept right away, in my special case it makes even less sense, that people sould pay money to become a member, because if Apollo moves on, people would pay for something they couldn't use anymore [10:25:47] then again, my costs of operating from a monetary point of view are almost 0 [10:25:48] shure. but lukas handles it in a freeconomy fashin, not a monetary trade fashion, making his lab freeer from direct trade dogmas. There is also the fact that he started of way before the others with public information using that name (afaik) [10:26:02] right, and that is a freedom, for you and for others. [10:26:05] other labs have to have rooms and if they need to rent it they need money to pay it [10:26:41] that's one absolutist statement I don't really agree on. [10:26:51] that is a bitch, I've had similar experiences in the past where people just copied my idea/name and made something commercial out of it [10:27:07] part of the reason for my motivation to do my part to change the world :) [10:27:25] "need" and "have to" and "might do"/"normally do" are things people economically seems to have a really hard time to separate [10:28:10] if they find no other way in a certain area (try munich for example) what is the option? [10:28:19] like my mom going on like "You HAVE to go to school", "you HAVE to have a job" etc etc. [10:28:40] get space donated or lended for a good cause perhaps. [10:29:07] or for some partnership benefitting from the inventions and creations the facilities will produce. [10:29:48] I can see that and I can follow your argument, but when you rely on goodwill and donations you may end up in a situation, where you have to tell the leaseholder every second month that you didn't get enough donations [10:30:08] take the muccc for example, it costs them about 1000EUR per month to keep operational [10:30:22] If I owwned a workshop, and people cme there and solved issues with electric consumption (production), heating, etc etc I would gladly give them unrestricted acess to use my stuff [10:30:34] so would I [10:30:49] and that is what we are trying to do and to prove that this system actually can work [10:30:56] so we're focusing on that [10:31:14] to show people in a live environment how things can be done without money [10:31:43] I'm just saying that, depending on your particular setup it isn't always easy to go for the "no money at all" approach [10:32:03] I will gladly always take donations of food, tea, tools resources and stuff [10:32:36] and try to refuse money whereever I can, so that people see that people are actively rejecting money and ONLY take money if no other option is feasible [10:32:36] There are other arrangement than 2:s and 3:d hand user "rights" some people actually owns their own properties, some even without loans or other dependencies forcing them to meka a profit out of the facilities to keep them. [10:33:33] which is obviously the path both you and lukas are following. [10:33:59] and that is a godd thing :) [10:34:33] or to follow elf-pavlik: that seems to me the best thing we could do :) [10:36:29] producing shared resources, made of shared resources by free people [10:37:01] in the best possible way without any trestrictions the money systems usually forces on product development [10:37:04] indeed, that would be the end goal. [10:37:11] I'm certainly striving towards that. [10:37:22] yeah i think in here we all do [10:37:36] Hopefully, yeah [10:41:41] chrono: yesterday i've registered for easterhegg and now someone asked me if i would like to make little presentation on topic of moneyless living... [10:42:39] elf-pavlik: that sounds great, I soo would like to know more about how you get by. [10:42:59] I'm sitting here reading The Moneyless Man btw =P [10:43:16] Have yo guys read it? [10:43:50] Caly: not yet, i need to ask mark for a copy ;) [10:44:28] If he rejects it, you can have mine when I'm done =) [10:45:02] I would be amazed if he didn't give you a copy though [10:49:28] Just reading about his disdain for polytunnel greenhouses, as it's made from non-renewables. albeit admittingly saving net fotprind due to decreasing transportation.. [10:49:59] It's sad when poeople rejects concepts due to the currenlty bad way of making them. ( PLA ftw! ) [10:50:45] I'm thinking alot about how to make a really efficient dome greenhouse without using insulating polycarbonate sheeting, and I cracked it just fine. [10:51:28] Gonna devide each triangle into subframes down to the size needed to build it with dual layers of recycled car windows. [10:51:56] and trying to keep it on a solely reclaimed lumber basis. [10:52:43] aquaphonic with a natural pond style ballast tank for fish/shrimps/clams/crayfish/algea/water plants for treating the weater [10:53:07] and for some excess produce ofc. [10:53:31] I'm trying to break it down to the technologies I need to build and the order. [10:54:03] The first will propably be a chicken tractor and a soil/compost tumbler (and a compost ofc!) [10:56:17] elf-pavlik: please do it, it makes sense, even if some hackers/nerds are not yet ready to got all the way, it's important to show them that people do to be a small shining beacon of hope [10:59:09] having a car as base concept of my whole thing leaves me no choice but to pay for insurance because I'm foreced to do so right now there isn't much I can do about that [10:59:27] but I think in all other matters I'll go for real moneyless design [11:00:06] share, donate, give whatever you like and can and use whatever you want, as long as your using it won't destroy it or affect the community in a negative way [11:01:02] chrono: even if you have some 'cant find workaround now' i would suggest you to keep it clear to everyone that you want to depricate use of money for that sutff and actively look for alternatives [11:01:15] Caly: great, please don't stop putting your focus on greenhouses, a free food production will become more important than software very soon :) we need to have workable alternatives [11:01:47] i think the mission statement makes it pretty clear, and I've decided to go for cc-by-sa-NC [11:02:10] just to keep the strikken out dollar sign visible all the time, it's a good symbol [11:07:04] chrono / elf-pavlik that gives me an idea here... [11:08:15] what if we set up some kind of practical-problems-to-solve library/database thing, where we can put up issues like "how do i do X without money" or "is there any better alternative ways to Y" and let community make suggestion in a structured way... [11:08:33] Caly: have i pointed you to this project of common friends of chrono and me: http://sharefoodforest.org/ [11:08:46] Caly: +1 [11:09:05] I know the freeconomy forum has been putting up questions, but forums are the worst of choises when it comes to structuring information :( [11:09:06] i plan to really keep full log of how i do what and keep it public... [11:09:53] shure, so does Mark, but that's not even close to be easily excessible or easily found... [11:10:01] it needs a hub! [11:11:36] I often get good ideas on web tools I would like to see, sadly I have yet to acquire the skills to produce them, and my focus will be no where near it in an overseable future. [11:12:52] I did start reading a python tutorial and made the first few attpempts of the task that whent with it. But I've been kept busy since [11:14:29] ah, cool, I see I have the collins gem boot on foraging that Mark reccommends =) [11:14:34] *book [11:14:49] Collins Gem ftw! [11:16:40] Caly: i think a central hub for things like that makes no sense to me anymore, if every autonomous group can keep their access for others open, each and everyone of us can put knowledge where it's best, for example if you have ideas regarding greenhouse, put them into the sharefoodforest wiki [11:16:57] this autonomous group can share the knowledge by topic [11:18:46] in time it will structure itself, but for now this is the best we can do with the little we have to begin with :) [11:20:45] that also has the additional benefit, that we as individual persons stop to cling to one group or name we identify ourserlves with and really start sharing and connecting to other autonomous groups [11:25:05] chrono: ofc, I meant using a smarter system to make information searchable in a way that any group could use for their specific field. [11:25:26] in this case I was mainly thinking about freeconomic practical living [11:25:44] i c [11:25:51] It has to be super-easy to actually make the feedback [11:26:02] i think about that a lot too, that where the open-resource domain and idea originaly came from [11:26:20] Caly: we can setup someting on http://moneyless.info - i wanted to update it alredy for long time... [11:26:21] URL Title: moneyless world [11:26:25] in that sence wiki's are not efficient, people rarely take the time even if they have great input [11:26:35] to have a global interconnected decentral system managing all resources (soft: knowledge, howotos, code etc) and hard resources like devices or basic resources [11:26:53] mhmm [11:27:05] but the system follows the people not the other way around [11:27:13] we need enough people to make something as big as this [11:27:34] so first we need to get more people onto the train and then start developing something like that [11:27:48] I'd like to use the buddycloud approach for something like that [11:28:02] it could be a good starting point for something like that [11:28:11] chrono: maybe you can read a bit of it - in german: http://keimform.de/2009/beruehrbare-bits/ [11:28:12] URL Title: Von kopierbaren Dingen, offenen Produktionsstätten und berührbaren Bits keimform.de [11:28:25] i know christian through: http://peerconomy.org/wiki/Main_Page [11:28:26] URL Title: Peerconomy.org [11:29:30] well, I would begin with experimanting on how it could be done. I would invlude a level of grading and EVALUATION [11:29:34] sry caps [11:30:00] to keep answers ranged in order or relevance / functionality etc. [11:30:16] elf-pavlik: nice, yeah, thats the way I see it [11:31:12] it's not utopia anymore, we share soft reources like plans, ideas and software globally and use local hard resource combined with global soft resources to build things locally to serve it's purpose locally [11:32:13] also some related links on this thread https://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/2b517c152e10237a/fd8057b428125f4a?lnk=gst&q=skdb [11:32:14] URL Title: Possible HackerSpace Hardware Inv. Software - Open Manufacturing | Google Groups [11:36:08] * elf-pavlik really needs to get going with one project now =) [11:38:08] elf-pavlik: if you find more stuff like that link, please keep my posted, I always like the opportunity to comment to show, that more people are interested and actively developing this new world :) [11:53:18] chrono: ack [11:58:02] I'm currently restructuring the event section of Apollo-NG, the calendar offers now feeds and also iCal file downloads, that should make it more "networkable" :) [14:02:16] The Past and Future of Open News Publishing - Pt One ; article by mickfuzz daft version please feedback! https://imc.li/rs4ut [14:03:09] chrono: how far gone are you in reality? Much practical stuff to be resolved before takeoff? [14:03:16] How are you poering the wehicle? [14:03:46] you mean for transport or all the electrical devices? [14:03:59] mhm [14:04:51] the odyssey's main propulsion system in order to move it through space is a relatively efficient common-rail diesel [14:05:21] all other subsystems, navigation, multimedia, computer, network, infrastructure, sensors and everything else is solar (PV) powered [14:05:44] an can be supported by wind/water/biomass system, depending on environment and situation [14:06:31] so, with the exception of diesel it's completely self-sustainable when in staionary orbit, acting as lab/hackerspace [14:06:59] same thing goes for aquarius (the habitat/landing-module) that is the trailer the odyssey pulls along [14:07:39] ok, and you just buy commercial diesel, or what? [14:07:49] idea being, okay, wie need diesel to move it, but we need nothing money based for operation in deployed mode [14:07:59] I was under the impression that you moved along virtually free of monetary needs (?) [14:08:06] I guess I will ask people to donate diesel if we plan to move [14:08:07] ah, ok [14:08:20] or find a source of biodiesel? [14:10:27] that is not that simple yet, there are no free biodiesel fabs that could produce it and although it has been shown to be possible to even fuel a common-rail engine with oil [14:10:37] Where I'm moving, we plan to develop open source destillery equipment, due to the abundance of naturally growing spices and herbs, for making seasoned alcohol/liquors, but the interesting part imo it the ability to use some of that tech to make biodiesel out of waste-products from the local organic olive oil production =) [14:12:23] well, diesel engines are simple, just fuel it with biodiesel. Ethanol fuels are a tad rtricier, as you need to replace the fuel line rubbers with stuff that don't dissolve or leak ethanol, and also, for carburettot engines, swap to a 20-22% bigger main nozzle [14:12:49] but most of these approaches are good ideas but not really feasible right now, this particular engine is designed to live more than 600k km, tests with preheated bio-oil fuel have shown to decrease the live expectancy of an engine by more than 50% so I won't go for that [14:13:41] but if someone can come up with a free replacement for diesel, made out of waste products, that would be awesome [14:14:02] without the need to unergo major engine modification that is [14:15:37] what is more technically complex, but in reality propably more reliable, is to use EFI (Electronic fuel injection) with a flexi-fuel EMS (Engine Management System). The maker-option today is Megasquirt, wich o some extent is community developed, but with a closed proprietary architecture. The better option imo is FreeEMS from the DIY-EFI community, albeit, currently it's in early development and lacks code to handle a fuel mixture sensor, but afaik, they only need so [14:15:37] meone to get the stuff and feed them the information to produce said code. [14:15:41] chrono, Caly: any idea about running engines on alcohol? [14:16:02] elf-pavlik: what I just said... [14:16:05] fermenting lots of stuf > produce alcohol > make car run on alcohol. <3 [14:16:18] but maybe that's just regular biofuel? [14:16:46] ethanol is an alcohol, the kind you drink and fuel cars with. [14:16:47] i can easily find bunch of stuff to ferment ;) [14:16:49] maybe have a car that runs on different things - electricity, ready gas, liquids [14:17:08] and just change modules depending on what resource you have more of for the time being :> [14:17:13] methanol is a good alcohol for raising the octane of gasolene or ethanol fuels. [14:17:25] makes sense,I follow the same apporach for helios, the development of engine system has shown, that a good sensor adjusted ecu can regulate any system to much better efficiency and fuel tolerance [14:17:29] methanol.. where do I get loads of that? :) [14:18:08] i prefer the diesel concept, as it's more efficient in itself and produces usable torque without the need to kick to high rpms [14:18:19] diesel is great [14:18:22] Fat64: that seems to be the apoproach of the open source car currently showing interest in becoming the transport system for GVCS (Global Village Construction Set from Open Source Ecology) [14:18:48] yes Caly , I saw a car in that 50-kit! but not sure how far they've come [14:18:59] Fat64: right now, on raisl :) I've been monitoring all kinds of railroads, using the "hazardous material" badge they all carry to identify which chemicals they carry [14:19:02] Fat64: Methanol = cellulose (wood) alcohol, the kind you go blind by drinking [14:19:11] you wouldn't belive how much stuff they roll on trains :) [14:19:23] chrono: :D:D [14:19:32] hijack train, acquire precious chemicals? [14:19:35] Fat64: oh, no where, but another project has shown interest to become that part of GVCS, let me link you... (TED talk) [14:19:48] Caly: wikispeed? [14:20:08] nah, jsut wait until they park it in a "rangierbahnhof" - get in at night and just "take" the amount one needs :9 [14:20:59] chrono: btw i consider stopping in munich for few days before going for easterhegg =) [14:21:20] elf-pavlik: yep. Here you go Fat64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkmyKmQppq8 [14:21:21] You4Tube 2[Title] TEDxRanier - Joe Justice 2011 | WIKISPEED 2[Category] Autos 2[Duration] 0:10:18 2[Views] 2152 2[Rating] 5.00 2[Uploaded] 2011-11-14 2[Description] Joe Justice presents at TEDxRanier how Team WIKISPEED has accomplished amazing results in producing a 100 Mile per Gallon (MPG) car using processes borrowed from the software world; Agile, Lean, Scrum and Extreme Programing. The result is that WIKISPEED now sells an affo [14:21:40] thanks!! [14:21:41] i wouldn't prefer to use these kinds of approaches, but when there is a point in the future when we might need to, it's good to know, security is also almost not existent [14:22:42] elf-pavlik: ah nice, again, if you need a place to crash or freshen up, or just to talk and discuss ... mi casa - su casa [14:26:45] * elf-pavlik cooking lunch =) [14:26:57] I was thinking of maybe getting the stuff needed for that FreeEMS and put in on my van to prove ethanol from compost waste or something. [14:27:13] chrono: thx! we'll catch up for sure = [14:29:30] Caly: yeah, hacking cars is something that is heyvily blocked by the old system [14:29:51] in germany you effectifely cannot even put in leds instead of wasteful lightbulbs [14:30:22] why? [14:30:33] raod safety rules? [14:31:24] In Sweden we have a tradition of amateurs building cars, customizing, hot-rods. choppers, trikes and such. [14:31:34] two reasons: we've got something called TUEV, every car needs to pass every two years and everything on/in the cra, that wasn't originally there has to be removed, otherwise you are prohibited to use the car on any public road [14:32:39] second, if you modify your car anyways you might get away, because the police doesn't see it - but if you have an accident, you are autotically guilty (if you really were or not makes no difference) and insurances will not pay, since the car is not TUEV approved [14:32:42] I even have the book "SFRO vehichle building handbook" SFRO is the Svenska Fordonsbyggares Riksorganisation, the (Swedish vehicle-builders national association) [14:34:24] if you want to modify something individually, you need to have official papers, for EVERY item, so even your microcontroller in your ems needs to have a paper claiming that this device has been approved for car usage they way you do it [14:34:28] We have something similar to TÜV in Sweden, but TÜV approved parts are accepted as OK in Sweden [14:35:05] if you can't produce such papers your only solution it to let these TUEV people check everything themselves in a special investigation, costing 5000EUR+ and you still might get rejected [14:35:41] for such things as mirrors, lights, safety belts and such safety features, otherwise we can modify alot as long as we don't have unesssecary pointy objects on the exterior that could harm people [14:36:14] i can understand where these regulations are coming from, in a way, they probably were invented with good intentions [14:36:40] but they've become so rigid and cumbersome that any DIY is virtually impossible [14:36:52] yeah, I know. [14:37:08] monopolizing after-markets in a sense [14:38:00] terrinble [14:38:03] -n [14:39:18] the vehicle entusiast hobby is HUGE in Sweden, having both the biggest car-meetup and the biggest bike-show in the world. [14:39:39] (Power Big Meet and Norrtälje Custom Bike Show) [14:40:56] germany has also many people who are crazy about cars, but with each new generation it's less doind yourself and more ready-made-pimpup to show how big your dick has become... only driven by money :( [14:41:24] Yeah, I know. [14:41:33] It's sad [14:41:45] no creativity is blooming there at all any more [14:42:21] that's what we're here for :) lead by example, even if the headwind is strong :) [14:43:11] indeed sir! [14:45:13] My internet is acting better today I think, been able to watch some queued videos and articles =) [14:45:39] and got my gear documentation sorted =P [14:45:39] https://picasaweb.google.com/104311290979555270424/CampingBushcraftingGear [14:45:42] URL Title: Picasa Web Albums - Calyptratus RBOSE - Camping & Bus... [14:46:13] that's what I haul around in my van [14:46:28] and some more stuff not realted to the topic of the album ofc. [14:46:51] hmm is also still need an axe [14:47:01] and a bow/crossbow [14:48:50] hmm, that would be another nix project, to build a flashlight, that has the output power and stability/usability of fenix ones. shouldn't be too hard, alloy pipes and a good step-up switching-supply, combined with a quality cree led [14:49:10] pity that we still depend on semicondcutor manufacturers.... well, in time [14:49:39] yep [15:04:51] chrono: in to survival and prepping any? [15:10:25] Caly: a bit, because survivalism is also an ism, and if we get to the point where we really have to depend on it, we fucked it up anyways ;) So in a way I used to be into survivalism but I figured that if we can change it now, we might have chance to get away without global destruction and rebuild from the ashes :) [15:11:22] well, I prefer to be prepared for anything [15:11:22] when we come to a stage of survivalism, there won't be any sharing, there will be hordes pludering the weaker ones... [15:11:45] not to shure about that, depends alot of the resilience of the communities we build. [15:12:15] Most of my skills are focused on not relying on any outer influences, hence, I won't be plundering others to get by. [15:12:32] no, you won't but 100.000 others will [15:12:40] sure. [15:12:49] we will be the ones to get plundered, not the other way around :) [15:12:59] because we have manage to prepare and actually have something [15:13:23] If it comes to that. I prefer to also be prepared to defend myself. [15:14:51] well, from what I've learned from human history, that if we get to this stage, there is no defense, the mob is to big, too many people against each other, each one trying to survive, there is no humanity left, look at how the vikings destroyed each other in greenland when the climate changed to be just a tiny bit smaller... no one survived [15:15:22] smaller=colder [15:15:29] right. sure. [15:15:39] I still prefer to be on the fighting end rather than the dead one. [15:16:30] fighting won't be a solution, no matter how well you're prepared, short of a neutron bomb, the numbers will outweigh anything... the only solution is to bee as far away and isolated as possible [15:16:36] I'm a pretty peacful guy, but I know violence has a place and time for every man when push comes to show. [15:17:28] Mobs will keep to occupied areas, otherwise their not efficient as a concept. I intend to be as far away from opopulated areas as possible. [15:17:45] then you won't need to fight... [15:17:45] hence, learning to live of nature out in the bush [15:17:51] right. [15:18:09] yeah, but again, if that comes to show, everything else is fucked up.... [15:18:16] shure [15:18:23] so better try to come up with an alternative solution before that happens :) [15:18:30] absolutely [15:18:47] but I choose not to limit my options [15:19:53] nah, thats a good thing, always keep an open mind to all possibilities, but don't waste too much time and effort into survivalism, I cover the basics as well, totally independent food/freshwater, doomsday communication setups and stuff like that [15:20:29] well, I think sustainable living and survival skills go hand in hand a lot. [15:20:35] no [15:20:56] a survivalist won't care about environment and anything else except his own survival [15:21:05] Especially as a means to show people less fortunate than me how to survive without having to resolve to fighting over resources or equipment. [15:21:13] when you're hungry you just don't think rational anymore [15:21:21] that is you're narrow preception of survivalism dude. [15:21:32] look at africa, india, people just cut down their forest to have energy to cook their meals [15:21:36] they have no choice [15:21:40] right, better learn how to not stay hungry. [15:21:58] indeed, and they would propably prefer having solar cookers so they won't have to. [15:22:23] which I know how to build, and how to make tools for from abundant materials. [15:22:33] no they don't, because they are so deep into their survial, they don't even have the time or the means to find out that there actually are alternatives [15:22:44] can you make a simple tool for drawing perfect parabolas? [15:22:45] O can. [15:22:48] * I can [15:22:52] you do, because you are not on the brink of survival, you have time to let you mind flow fre [15:23:08] sure, hence they need my input. [15:23:13] indeed [15:23:19] skilles I've learn with my survivalist mindset. [15:24:02] there's no black and white scenarios here. [15:24:54] if you ever come into a situation, when you finally lose the ability to make that kind of distinction and really have to survive and nothing else we might talk again and see where you stand then :) [15:25:28] it's easy to define that from a point of preparational view but never really having been in that kind of scenario :) [15:29:28] is your parabola tool somewhere online? [15:30:23] or if it's not a digital tool (like code/gfx) a documentation how to build it? [15:38:06] nothing, all in my head. [15:38:17] will document as I start to experiment. [15:38:31] don't even have a sketch on paper yet [15:38:47] my life has been quite crazy lately. [15:39:33] just thinking a couple of steps ahead keeps you sane, because if you believe hard enough in the tecnology, you will feel more at ease, than the desperate running off to chop wood panicking :) [15:39:46] like planning to build the solar heaters, water purifiers, etc [15:41:18] chrono: i don't really see why aquiering survival skills could ever be bad. [15:41:41] and why I would reject it because of some highly unlikely super-extreme scenario [15:42:30] I want to be confident that I could live off the land if I get into a situation where I need to, bu choice or not. [15:42:37] *by [15:43:20] Caly: I never said it is bad :) I'm only saying that in a world, that doesn't require someone to live on a survivlist basis, it's easy because other poeple just do what they do (buy stuff) and you do whatever you do (build stuff) [15:44:16] but if we come to the point where suvivalism becomes real, then your concepts and ideas might be off a little bit :) But only people who were fighting for their lifes against other people will now that [15:44:32] I'm really glad I equipped myself and learned the skills so far, A year ago I had family, a business, an additional wage job, a big house in the middle of town, a workshop and a social life. Today I have neither, and that is not by choice, but out of circumstances. [15:45:20] neither have I - I let go of everything too, except for tools and stuff that can be used to build new things in a community based approached [15:45:28] but that isn't survivalism at all [15:45:41] mind you, I also hold skills in physical violence =/ [15:46:01] lets see how you can use the skills when 500 armed people run you over :) [15:46:11] this is a fruitless discussion [15:47:54] there is no weapon, traing or technology that will really help in a true survivalist based world - but you have to have been there to realize that [15:47:57] I keep gear in my van for daily survival, cooking gear, foraging manuals, stuff for beeing able to sleep wamr and dry, etc etc. I see that as survivalism. I virtually live out of my van as of now, and the things I choose to bring when I had to flead on super-short notice was mostly allready packed and prepared, thanks to me thinking ahead about those things. [15:48:13] that doesn't mean we should do what we do :) [15:48:18] so what are you suggesting really? [15:49:02] I'm only saying, the stuff we prepare for and do is for the world we want to shape and in order to make it, we prepare for food/water/ stuff like that [15:49:06] you keep coming back to extremely unrealistic scenarios of 500 people armed to their teeth wanting to end my life for some reason. [15:49:13] and thats going to work perfectly for each of us [15:49:14] that's NOT what survivalism is about at all. [15:49:25] as long as the rest of the world isn't going into survival mode :) [15:49:50] well, that waht survivalism means, the rest is just mcgyver :) [15:49:59] and I've always loved that dude :) [15:50:16] you are entirely focused on a global SHTF situation, or the likes of it, whilst I'm not. [15:51:16] I might want to survive when my car breaks down in the middle of nowhere on a cold winter night, just the same. [15:51:43] it increases your chance of survival, regardless of how the world operates =) [15:51:46] That has actually happened to me, I had to walk several kilometers in blistering cold just to get reception to call for help. [15:51:47] or its current state [15:51:57] right. [15:51:59] I loved the TED talk caly! It was exactly how I thought it [15:52:07] =) [15:52:07] about the car with modularity built in from design [15:52:11] yep [15:52:11] just great [15:53:05] chrono: and i certainly do my bit to develop something saner and better and more sustainable. [15:53:16] like... co-founding RBOSE for instance. [15:56:21] look dude, I don't get why you are so freaked out about that, it seems to me you're really feeling somehow attacked in a way, which totally isn't my intention [15:57:00] I'm just saying, that what you call survivalism isn't survivalism at all, it's common sense and human being at a basic form. [15:58:55] and it's important that we don't communicate improperly, because if we proclaim survivalism as what we want to do, the world and its people will perceive a totally different thing of what we're actually trying to do here [16:00:40] Well, I don't know ehere you get your definition of survivalism from, but we can agree to disagree on it. [16:01:24] And I have no clue why you think I feel attacked either, just making conversation. [16:02:47] right [16:03:17] instead of wasting time on fruitless discussion, you could use the time to pull something out of your head to a documented howto :) [16:03:29] me too :) [16:03:35] let's not continue this discussion :) [16:04:29] it's certainly a spectrum anyway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism#Outline_of_scenarios_and_outlooks [16:04:30] URL Title: Survivalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [16:04:39] but ok. [16:05:19] and no, I won't be documenting anything today, or in the near future, I'm living in limbo, homeless, broke, cold and preoccupied. [16:05:41] preparing for the trip to Spain [16:06:06] where I will be documenting alot [16:06:08] well, you may always drop here and get shelter, food and hot tea ;) [16:06:33] If it fit's my travel route, I might just do that. [16:06:45] weill be driving through Germany anyway. [16:06:55] anytime, but I think that munich will be a bit of an optimized route to spain [16:07:04] ah, ok [16:07:10] of=off [16:07:37] but since I'm considering spain as well we might join there [16:07:43] so we could combine our resources [16:08:03] are you planning to go to one of the eco villages or do you have something else in mind? [16:08:04] certainly a possability [16:12:51] chrono: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjF3n-AuzyM [16:12:52] You4Tube 2[Title] Millares - Spain Dec 2011 Visit - Montage 2[Category] Nonprofit 2[Duration] 0:02:07 2[Views] 630 2[Rating] 5.00 2[Uploaded] 2011-12-16 2[Description] Longer video with comments - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqT7t_tMyYE During this trip to Millares, Spain we looked at attainable land, abandoned land that could be used for growing food and fresh water springs amongst many other things. The strong winds make it a g [16:13:54] moving there to help some people start up some good shit. They have a workers collective that needs shaping up and getting into producing better stuff. [16:14:06] cool [16:14:12] sounds just like my cup of tea [16:14:27] helping local people with resources, tools and infrastructure [16:14:58] and skills & knowledge obviously [16:15:37] they have a run-down but big workshop that needs their own power generation. Plans include making windmills, making briquette presses, wood shredders, gasifiers, and some otther stuff. [16:16:07] yep. It's a small village, small community, and beautiful scenery with warm climate. [16:16:53] wind in this location will very hard on a larger scale, except when you move the mills to the top of the hills, [16:17:08] but it seems perfect [16:17:23] small village, community, derelict, run down workshop [16:17:29] the best place to start something up :) [16:17:42] they've started on some smaller scale self-suffficiency grow-op with plans for chickens, green houses and bee-keeping. I hope to incorporate fresh water farming of fish and shrimps and other things that we are currently eradicating from our oceans. [16:18:04] to incorporate in aquaphonic growing cycles. [16:19:57] hmm, in that env, my contributions would go to energy production, efficiency increase (reduction of energy consumption), it infrastructure, linking the whole village, food and freshwater production [16:20:03] possibly setting up a compost waste disposal business, to feed chickens, make compost and organic fertilizer, and in the future extrude heat and biogas. [16:20:23] nice [16:20:28] there is no need for fresh water there, the water comes from natural springs, and are all free [16:20:50] I would like to fiddle with water purification regardless, but it's locally a very low priority. [16:21:11] well somebody will need to develop a system to remove all the problem artificial aquaculture is introducing into the water we let go :) [16:21:21] indeed [16:22:20] I would want to rid the community from excrementing into the water to begin with, and to stop using nasty chamicals for washing [16:23:09] true [16:23:25] taht would go a long way. [16:24:43] hi again guys :) [16:25:13] hi lukas :) [16:25:17] hi lukas =) [16:26:11] I feel today really overwhelmed with all the stuff around to be done [16:26:20] * lukas needs a good plan [16:26:41] one step at a time :) [16:27:41] lukas: at the lab? [16:27:56] just make a list, prioritize and get to it. [16:30:00] yeah, i'm like a total noob when it comes to growing something on a bigger piece of land, there is a 1 ha still to be cultivated and we don't have yet here any heavy equipment [16:30:43] doing that by hand is probably not possible in a sane amount of time [16:30:46] we all have been confronted with stuff we've never done before :) just have confidence in your abilities ;) [16:31:09] :D lukas so much fun! [16:31:15] to cultivate the big land for the first time [16:31:39] try to get some people to help you if the machines can't be build in time, make it like people did for hundreds of years, together :) [16:31:55] organize a cultivation party ;) inviate people, play music :) [16:32:03] *** Joins: Viper (Viper@RBOSE-fnj.k3a.168.192.IP) [16:32:05] chrono, i read in logs what you have wrote and seems there is a big chance you might find resonance here :) [16:32:37] even friction :) [16:32:42] say wo0t [16:32:44] haha [16:32:49] !dance chrono [16:32:49] ACTION does a crazy Disco Dance with chrono in #RBOSE [16:33:10] Hi folks [16:33:13] hi Viper! :D [16:33:16] hey viper :) [16:33:20] :) [16:33:26] hi Viper [16:33:44] if you have a limited amount of time and no machines and no means to build appropriate machines in time, man power seems to me like a solution, so, party on :) [16:34:42] lukas: aren't you gonna plat if to be a fruit forest? [16:34:46] *plan it [16:34:57] the permaculture way [16:36:20] Caly: that is the idea, but before the winter time the soil was plowed, so now we worry it will get to fast to dry [16:36:42] if* it [16:37:11] well, start covering it with cut grass, leaves and such. [16:37:19] even plastic if you have it laying around. [16:37:36] all the stuff you have to clean out of the old animal pits [16:37:49] and start by planting fruit trees obviously. [16:38:12] and clover, it spreads fast and are good nutrition for the soil [16:39:36] I guess people have tackeld the issue before, just go find the info! =P [16:39:41] Caly: do you have coordinates for the place in spain? I'd like to keep it open as an option [16:40:24] chrono: the village name is in the title... goole maps or open street maps finds it if you just put in Millares, Spain [16:40:30] ack [16:40:41] i wasn't sure if that was the villages or the project name [16:40:51] It's just outside of Valencia, mostly surrounded by a huge natural reservation area [16:41:26] great, a quiet place far away from "developed" civilization [16:41:50] yep, and as it's in steep teerain, not likely to ever be over-developed or heavily populated. [16:42:12] brb, i go to eat something, we were in wilds for 3h and on a total bike offroad like never before [16:42:22] full of obandoned growing terraces with irrigation canals and all [16:42:43] lukas: sounds like alot of fun. What's the temperature there now? [16:43:10] ,weather FreeLab polen [16:43:11] Caly: Error: Google must be dumb because it is unable to find location FreeLab polen. Pease try search for city together with country, for example: weather Oslo, Norway [16:43:13] xD [16:43:38] ,weather Millares, Spain [16:43:39] Weather for Millares, Valencia on 1970-01-01 00:00UTC 2[Current:] 9℃, Light rain, Wind: NE at 21 km/h, Humidity: 87% 2[Forecast:] Tue: Rain ( 13℃ | 8℃ ), Wed: Mostly Sunny ( 16℃ | 5℃ ), Thu: Mostly Sunny ( 18℃ | 4℃ ), Fri: Mostly Sunny ( 17℃ | 6℃ ) [16:43:53] whoa [16:44:01] =) [16:44:20] 1970??? o_O [16:44:22] wth... [16:44:48] DNS777: your bott is off by 43+ years [16:44:56] ^^ [16:45:42] Caly: it's 12°C today, 4 and 3 days ago it was almost 20°C, so we had been enjoying sun a lot first time after winter [16:45:57] same thing here in munich too [16:49:01] nice [16:49:10] We had snow yesterday... =/ [16:49:31] at least it's above freezing outdoors today [16:49:41] slight melting... [16:51:41] Caly: btw, we will probably change the name of the project, an other guy in poland started few days a really similar project, it's about free technologies, but like caricature of what we have been working on since a year, they have fees, sell stuff on ebay like websites, tons of political propaganda, i contacted him 6h after they put first small article on website, but he showed zero of good will, instead he [16:51:43] said something like "there might be man freelabs out there" (with what i agree and what was one of the objectives) but he registered all over the net the freelab after we talked [16:51:55] few days ago* [16:52:23] yeah, I saw it. [16:52:30] morons [16:52:40] just get a better name. [16:52:54] I suggested RealFreeLab earlier today =P [16:53:03] sad to hear lukas , AwesomeLab sounds more you [16:53:08] or TrueFreeLab xD [16:53:19] haha, yeah [16:53:30] FreeconomyLab perhaps? [16:55:23] "The Lab." [16:55:27] thanks, i have one idea, but i will not share on this channel (publicly logged) since i could not eliminate the chance that somebody is messing with us on purpose [16:55:32] yes [16:55:42] damn pranksters everywhere [16:56:12] and btw, let's not go into fight with them, i lost any hope for sane discussion on a cultural level [16:56:24] well, we'll soon prove them all wrong, won't we? [16:56:26] =P [16:56:37] probably :) [16:57:24] aye! [17:01:57] =) [17:46:27] this channel is actively logged? [17:47:17] it is [17:47:18] nand published? [17:47:21] full transparency bam [17:47:24] nand? [17:47:26] and [17:47:27] and [17:47:31] it's on a webvserver [17:47:33] right away [17:47:36] oh [17:47:40] you can see a message about this when you connect to the ircserver [17:47:40] hmm [17:47:48] it's important that you know of it :o [17:47:52] obviously oberlooked [17:48:13] hmm pity [17:50:02] then I will have to cut back here... [17:51:53] ok [17:58:27] I'm all for transparency and as you have seen I have no trouble to tell and my beliefs, but I've worked to long to help establish privacy and awareness of people against the massive overlogging of all data and communication. [17:58:37] and back my beliefs [17:59:54] :) I am very divided in this question [18:00:06] but I lean more towards the openness part in this, since it is a public chatroom too [18:00:13] if I wanted privacy; I'd do it somewhere else [18:00:13] i know [18:00:51] this is not so much a matter of private/public imho but a matter of consequence since in our current system all this data isn't used to help people [18:01:13] someone has to turn the tide :) [18:01:35] in time, when we're ready I would neverobject to a public copy of my thoughts and beliefs that will be there for all eternity [18:02:11] nut as of now, with more people using this data against people instead of for them, we accept a very high risk of being targeted [18:02:37] well, what we do, is trying to turn the tide [18:02:57] that doesn't necessarily mean, that what we SAY must be archived and available to everyone for now :) [18:03:00] I really don't care if we are targeted :) [18:03:03] that's me however [18:03:29] chrono: i wonder sometimes about this as well [18:03:29] well, lukas already thinks twice before saying the "new name" on this channel [18:03:52] so, in a way, this already limits the amount of output a channel can have [18:03:52] yes, but that's because he can discuss this somewhere else [18:03:59] when people have to think what they say, and what not [18:04:01] it's just a matter of common sense :> [18:04:09] I wouldn discuss my bra size in public. [18:04:35] I wouldnt discuss where I would move in a public place if I knew I had a sworn enemy that hates my guts [18:04:38] i totally dinÄt get, that I was in public [18:04:48] yes I know :C but this is sort of public [18:04:50] t get, that I was in "public" [18:05:03] I am sorry for not pointing that out earlier x( [18:05:10] no sweat [18:05:23] i should have read more closely ;) [18:05:26] yeah, there are obvious downsides, for sure among upsides there is the option that somebody might catchup when he was longer away [18:06:39] yes, and find gold materials [18:06:54] "I recall that time we discussed this and that, you posted an url?" [18:06:56] :) [18:07:10] chrono: you are not the first creative person for whom I see this is a problem, maybe we need to rethink some stuff, because if this happens with creative people than it's not nice, some people who like to post crap on other hand are really happy about these logs [18:08:05] well, for some people saying something is just a tool to solidify their self esteam and they want to watch the logs to see that they exist :) [18:08:29] but here I hadn't had the feeling that anyone here is such a person [18:08:47] you really have a good thing going here, with creative open minded people [18:09:07] I felt right at home, from they very start, no trolls, no bs [18:09:20] but now my home became glas ;) [18:09:40] chrono, some are proud they come here and mess with us, and we keep all the logs for their glory (happened really rarely but i guess it was the case one or two times) [18:09:41] that's niec :) [18:09:44] +spelling [18:11:39] i need to run right now for a 1h, please do not disconnect, we may find an idea which might suit everyone! :) [18:12:06] no, I didn't intend to just bugger off :) [18:12:44] the ratio of morons vs. thinking people is way too high here :) [18:19:29] maybe a compromise could be to still keep the logs for reference and absentee purposes but not make them publicly available for any bot to harvest and save forever but only for the people using it, maybe linked to the nickserv accounts, that only registered irc accounts can access. that is still public and transparent but only to people it may concern [18:20:14] that's a cool idea [18:20:28] to put a lid on the biggest threat [18:20:36] jop [18:23:23] *** Joins: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) [18:23:52] thinking in options should also include thinking in possible risks. and of the bigger "risks" is, that we are successful, that we can do what we want to do, and mobilize more and more people. It's a very high risk, that at some point, the current system will try virtually everything to stop us in any way the can using any information they can grab. [18:26:37] in ccc (chaos computer club) germany we have a standing policy against logging of any kind, what so ever. not because of secrecy but because of the too high risk of abuse of logged data. only what not exists cannot be used against you. So almost every hacker associted with ccc follows this policy. [19:02:12] *** Quits: Viper (Viper@Evil.Troll) (Connection closed) [19:10:35] wo00000000000t [19:22:18] DNS777: what do you think about it? [19:22:42] huh about what? i just came online and no backlog atm [19:40:42] no backlog D: [19:44:36] Fat64: it's there, but DNS777 meant something with his private settings [19:47:42] yes :) [19:47:50] It's hard to convey the right feeling over irc [20:06:48] *** Quits: Hakufu_ (jonte@RBOSE-ocqjmp.bredband.comhem.se) (Connection closed) [20:21:55] *** Joins: iamme1112 (iamme@RBOSE-b4r.aed.31.41.IP) [20:22:01] *** Quits: iamme1112 (iamme@RBOSE-b4r.aed.31.41.IP) (Connection closed) [20:25:43] *** Joins: iamme1112 (iamme@RBOSE-b4r.aed.31.41.IP) [20:36:24] *** Quits: iamme1112 (iamme@RBOSE-b4r.aed.31.41.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [21:02:47] I still think that worrying about logging in a public room is kinda moot, since anyone can just get in here and log anything they want and use it for whatever they please. [21:05:36] and we started out beeing very hard on transparency due bad experiences in prior communities that had closed forum sections, put passwords on main IRC channels, put a theory test on membership allowance, and did all kinds of ass-backwards exclusion functionality onto the community, in which we (the RBOSE founders) were dthe driving developers. [21:06:37] very well put Caly [21:06:54] every1 could put in here a bot and log [21:07:07] also only a very few chans are logged [21:07:14] so please dont worry:) [21:07:28] I'm VERY keen on integrity, and I keep a registered nick, vhost and SSL on any IRC server I'm on [21:08:11] DNS: what is it now? Main, #wiki and ? [21:08:17] * DNS777 [21:08:25] also i must say that many irc networks dont have cloaked host on default for every user [21:08:27] we have [21:08:42] chrono: comments? [21:08:46] !stats [21:08:50] IRC Stats Updates: #RBOSE: http://rbose.org/irc/stats | #developers: http://rbose.org/irc/stats/developers.html | #WIKI: http://rbose.org/irc/stats/wiki.html [21:09:06] those 3 chans are logged [21:09:13] ah, #developers, was thinking that might be the third. [21:09:27] right, I had 3 somwhere in the back of my head =P [21:22:07] i got introduced a bit to the history of CCC policy, motives behind and their approach - really not easy to decide what is better, they experiences very serious problems, including infiltration, crime and murders - from what i get there is much on stake [21:22:51] o_O [21:43:27] coming in here and logging is an active act, putting logs out there on the web for ANY bot to collect for all eternity is naive, imho [21:45:05] well, consider the stakes of our ideas on a massive scale, computer stuff will be a kids-birthday party compared to that ;) [21:48:40] I'm relly not trying to preach here, but we've seen that this kind of message is mostly received by people, when it's already to late, so all I try here is to warn you of possible implications you might not consider reality yet, until that is so to make a sensible and reasonable choice on your own. You have been warned :) [21:52:48] *** Quits: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [21:54:17] chrono: before that mess happened to ccc, were there any existing logs already someone was able to use? i mean could the bad guys be caught obviously by the logs and be seen by anybody forever? [21:56:11] the big war to overcome in the future is the one made up in peoples heads. This "us against them". The short answer to the question is. There is no them. [21:57:20] and its a really big difference between doing and acting different than the "baa baa"-mentality, and still respect people who think differently about things. [21:57:39] most people tend to fight in words rather than compete with great solutions. [21:59:37] lukas: I don't think so. They probably never had online logs. It just goes to show, that if however any kind of group, diverting from the path of the common system grows in numbers, they will become a target like the ccc and many other groups (like doctors or scientists). Once that happens anything one does or says comes under a microscope and as soon as there is enough "grey" material collected they start to move against these groups. ... [21:59:43] ... Providiing them with archived logs from the past (archived on the web) [22:00:16] so don't blow your cover? [22:00:17] will give out everything everyone ever stated and therefor the richest environment for spinning. it's a pot of gold for authorities [22:00:28] my mom didn't name me Caly [22:00:37] and my host gives you nothing. [22:01:19] I know there is ways to find out who I am, not that I worry, but I don't make it too easy. [22:01:43] well, believing that your nickname will cover your real identity is a futile thing today, there is already so much interlinked data, that even when you can't get to someone directly, you can get to him via profiling data and finding common links [22:01:58] shure [22:02:05] all because of too much logged data [22:02:38] well, I got out of facebook and google, places where they actually look for data. [22:02:39] for example, your website, do you log ip's in your access.log? [22:03:36] they look for data everywhere, I have stopped counting the number of machines the gov has talen away from people @ccc - servers, clouddata, home pc's, if they want it, they just grab it. [22:04:25] facebook and google are the latest inventions to provide them with means to get poeple to give them they complete data for free ;) [22:05:14] police in munich for example is actually using facebook to spot parties they can turn over [22:05:26] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ [22:05:27] You4Tube 2[Title] Numb3rs' description of IRC 2[Category] Comedy 2[Duration] 0:01:41 2[Views] 780058 2[Rating] 4.42 2[Uploaded] 2009-11-11 2[Description] Episode 6x07: Numb3rs describes the Internet Relay Chat protocol, a "pretty primitive chat program". It's how hackers talk when they don't want to be overheard. Oh, and they use leetspeek! "LUCKILY, I speak leet." ENHANCE! ENHANCE! CROP! ROTATE! ZOOM IN ON THAT REFLECTION! PS: n [22:06:09] don't want to be overheard :) [22:06:24] well, OTR :) [22:06:37] kalken: to very large degree i agree, but i seen people who just care about more zeros on account, or to get a medal for obedience, or other types of sociopaths and psychopaths, and from what i seen they don't give a shit about different perspectives, understanding others, or even their lives - as specie we are "one", but this one can have extreamly flawed perspectives and altered recognition, as you for [22:06:37] example wrote about the so called "educated decisions" [22:06:45] or good ol blowfish [22:07:10] :D [22:07:18] lukas: so stop focusing on them and work with the people who do understand :) [22:08:15] -nobody- Calyp has quit FREENODE (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [22:09:03] it cant be any surprise to anyone that our economy as we know it is going to end up in the big black whole of history, because its built on the basis that tomorrow is always going to be as big or bigger than yesterday. [22:09:30] it does not matther what anyone believes. Trying to regulate dept with more debt will fail. [22:09:51] question is when, and what happens next [22:10:04] exactly [22:10:19] and how we can prepare to come up with something before it finally blows [22:10:45] because if we start afterwards there is no way of knowing how it's going to shape up [22:10:58] by eliminating the need for direct trades (e.g expecting something in return everytime one gives) [22:11:01] this thing is dying, no question [22:11:29] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE.org) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [22:12:14] i think we're all on common ground here,no bitching about a dead system, start working on a new one, with an alternate mindset and a completely different view on resource mor than value [22:12:56] yes [22:13:36] in the past it wasn't possible to develop stuff on your own, so we had to establish companies and shit like that in order to progress further - but we have developed far beyond that, we don't need them anymore, and the crude system they need to operate [22:14:45] so, we lead, into a world, peer 2 peer, by people, from people, and when we have enough to show for we invite more people to follow - that is the basic idea and as such, it's unstoppable, like evolution [22:22:13] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbcy_ZxXLl8 [22:22:14] You4Tube 2[Title] Talk - Eben Moglen - Free and Open Software: Paradigm for a New Intellectual Commons 2[Category] News 2[Duration] 1:11:56 2[Views] 5784 2[Rating] 4.96 2[Uploaded] 2009-05-10 2[Description] Talk by Eben Moglen with the Software Freedom Conservancy on "Free and Open Software: Paradigm for a New Intellectual Commons" given at the Law of the Commons Conference March 13, 2009 at Seattle University and sponsored by the S [22:23:22] right [22:24:08] ah, I think I'll get dressed and have a little walk through the forest, it's so peaceful at night, no people, no cellphones, no barking and shitting dogs everywhere [22:24:25] :) [22:24:46] only deer and some freaky birds that won't sleep :) [22:29:44] :]