[00:20:14] *** Joins: Kebap23 (Max@RBOSE-a6t783.adsl.hansenet.de) [00:27:45] *** Quits: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-ohlgda.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [00:32:32] *** Quits: rwx (ludens@RBOSE-hit4pr.ipredator.se) (A TLS packet with unexpected length was received.) [00:33:27] *** Joins: rwx (ludens@RBOSE-n6qm5q.noisetor.net) [06:50:49] *** Joins: Uncle_Fester (uncle_fester@RBOSE-auil1g.mweb.co.za) [07:00:35] *** Joins: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) [08:35:12] *** Quits: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [09:19:40] kalken: I liked your argument of direct vs. indirect trade, I was always lokking for some kind of easy to transfer abstraction for arguments to support our case in case of questions like "how is this going to work?" [09:20:09] I think will think about your argument a bit more and try to put it into the overall mission-statement text [09:21:30] :) [09:24:50] chrono: the requirement to always get something back for giving basically creates this unjustice-world in the end [09:25:05] because people find value in what others cant hav [09:25:07] *have [09:25:13] I guess I intuitively came to "think" of this by myself, and behaved according to this model for al long time now, but I never had a name or conscious concept about it. I do some stuff and someone else does some stuff and in the big picture everone will get what they want [09:25:24] but that wasn't transferable [09:25:40] you starting to see the matrix then :) [09:25:41] a concept for names and words like direct and indirect trade makes it much more clear [09:26:25] no, I#ve left the matrix a long time ago :) [09:26:32] :D [09:26:54] it can be confusing with "direct trade" also, because some people think of money as an indirect trade [09:26:56] and I still sit there sometimes, laughing, repeating to myself: "Why didn't I take the blue pill" [09:26:59] thats not what i mean [09:27:04] no i no [09:27:07] money is direct [09:27:09] yes [09:27:20] you get something directly for directly giving him/her money [09:27:27] every expectation to refuse to help before one can get anything back, is direct imo [09:27:36] agree [09:28:34] more like, I develop systems to make life way more energy saving for everyone, thereforea baker will need much less energy to create bread, I gave my knowldge for free, so I can get the bread for free [09:29:25] the only crux I can think of is: what is with the rest? I don't take more than I need and I've come to really _need_ very little, so I wouldn't abuse such a system [09:29:35] sure. If the need for direct trades disapears, there is no need for sticks and stones to trade either [09:29:46] what about people who were raised and programmed to gather as much stuff as possible, even if they don't need it [09:30:17] this is "problem" is more relevant in the "transition phase" and will disappear in the long run [09:30:39] but still, I think some thoughts should also flow into this direction, to help the process [09:30:40] the worst thing about it, is that some people who are trying to improve the world see no problem with a trading-system driven forward by unjustice :) [09:31:02] then they are not trying to help the world [09:31:25] so we have our great thought about life and hide them. Trying to sell the great ide off in pieces :D [09:31:43] how on earth will everybody know about these good ideas fast enough then? :) [09:32:02] *idea [09:32:17] well, from where I sit and what I've seen/read/learned we're in a race of time [09:32:36] and I was always pessimistic about the end result [09:32:51] going more vor pure individual survivalism [09:33:04] yes. And this thing i'm talking about will have to take place before things get limited again. [09:33:06] but seeing and becoming part of the global hackerspace/fablab culture changed all that [09:33:43] :) [09:33:57] so I'm very optimistic, that if such an environment could really drastically change my behaviour from someone who just thinks the world is a shitty place to someone who is actively trying to change things [09:34:04] so it's relatively simple [09:34:23] let hackerspaces/fablabs grow like hell [09:34:30] get more people into it [09:34:36] i always say that talking about how the world could have been will always make one sad in the end. Atleast up to the point when one starts to improve it and see the results [09:34:57] each hacker/hackerspace can also actively make people aware, that there actually are other solutions if they'd care to look :) [09:35:01] every day is a gift. Thats why we call it the present. [09:35:26] did you catch the link of my big picture draft? [09:36:53] could you repost? [09:36:59] mom [09:37:25] https://apollo.open-resource.org/media/the-big-picture.png [09:38:32] we just put a name on an idea that publicly links all these growing autonomous groups, keeping their eutonomy and own identity but still have a common idea we can communicate as one movement to massively increase public awareness [09:39:07] it's just number crunching eventually, get into as many peoples heads as possible, even if they can't grasp it yet, the idea may be forming over time in all human brains [09:39:32] chrono: nice :) [09:39:35] no organization or website or anything real, just a name for an an idea [09:39:39] like anonymous [09:39:44] but no anonymous [09:40:46] I'll try to finish the big picture this week [09:41:00] for me this thing started with me understanding that my brain was always trying to set up mental models of the world. This was not a problem in it self. But me not being fully aware of it was a real problem [09:41:15] cause then i thought about countries for example. [09:41:23] and I'd like to ask you guys to help spread the image, because I always was somewhat isolated and have no real network unfortunately :( [09:41:44] they are basically made up in peoples heads, and in reality very much interconnected to each other [09:41:45] yeah countries [09:41:48] borders [09:41:53] exactly [09:41:53] nationalism [09:41:59] same shit everywhere [09:42:02] each with another language [09:42:08] even with open groups :) [09:42:17] if people hides behind one flag [09:42:41] trying to cooperate only with the ones they "think" is with them [09:44:05] I always try to "sell" the concept of the earth to people through the metaphor of a ship, our "motherhsip" earth, and ask them how they think a ship will work, when the bridge crew cannot communicate to the machine room (language) if they cannot move from one deck to another (borders) and the brdige crew invented an new engine but won't let the engine room use this engine (intellectual property) [09:44:06] thats about the time it becomes more important to talk about what the people building the table are believing in, than trying to figure out what is the best way to actually pull off the greatest table design in history:) [09:45:30] chrono: thats a good metaphor [09:46:15] still it can be hard to reach people who have spent all their life identifying with their name, how old they are and where they came from... [09:46:28] of course and frustrating [09:46:36] but I strongly believe in the concept of inception [09:46:53] if a certain mindset is repeated often enough to the human brain [09:47:00] it will root there [09:47:05] unconsciously [09:47:17] and then pop up somewhere into the conscious mind [09:47:27] like it was their own idea [09:47:33] leading to true belief in it [09:47:51] I think it's impossible to change poeple by telling them what would be better :) [09:48:14] it's how tv works for the other side [09:48:25] constantly feeding people with the same old concepts [09:48:44] human nature is to copy what we see others do into our own behavioural model [09:49:08] so let's give them something else to copy [09:58:21] exactly :) [09:58:51] telling others not give the right picture, or the right incentives [09:59:10] inspiring oneself and others to DO is the way to go imo [09:59:43] everybody can have great thoughts, but very few actually do what they are thinking [10:00:09] maybe thats what being a hacker is really about [10:00:16] wanting to know and do more [10:00:39] sure, because they were told from when they were children that they can't do shit :) so even if they think differently and free they won't act on it for 2 reasons [10:00:57] 1. they think they're alone and cannot accomplish anything against such bad odds [10:01:52] 2. the "free" system penalizes everyone who decides freely to stop following the current system (i.e. not gowing to work -> no money -> no house -> no car - >not getting laid [10:02:09] 3. They have learnt that failing at a task, or being wrong, is a bad thing :) [10:02:48] and the level of pain the system inflicts of people is regulated in a way, that you can get most work out of the slave-race without having to fear, that majority will start to rebel (because people are still okay, not happy, but they get by) [10:02:55] indeed [10:02:58] chrono: i think thats what makes this freelab and alternative ways of living so interesting [10:03:13] because that basically gets people security and time to think for them selves [10:03:31] instead of buying in to this other idea that people try to sell... [10:03:39] that too, confidence is very important and our world doesn't inspire confidence in people, how many people cannot say "I don't know" and start jibbering trash that sound intelligent just to camouflage their not knowing [10:03:54] and how can a person learn, if he's not even willing to admit that he doesn't know? [10:04:12] true that :) [10:04:43] yet what we admire people for is because they do something that others think is hard [10:05:00] and probably fail a milion times before they finally succeed [10:05:03] indeed, hackerpsaces, fab/freelabs do 2 things at a time, they offer a technological solution to many relevant parts of human existence and development [10:05:15] and a completely different mindset of people [10:05:29] that's why I believe that this has the most chance of success [10:05:51] chrono: did you see the post (eben moglens speech) i posted yesterday? [10:05:59] well worth 1 h of talks [10:06:37] jep [10:06:45] he gives a great perspective on things, that we the more "technical" people will have to translate to the rest of our society [10:07:25] i think the problem is that people who tell them selves they are not technical, does not even understand how things are developed [10:07:38] they just expect new phones and cars to show up [10:08:22] but if everybody understood that its impossible to improve something if one does not know why it works the way it works, this will become clearer [10:08:43] because what it says is basically that the ones with the knowledge about things, will decide our future [10:11:00] and if who decides what our future is going to be, is more interested in short term profits than actually building great things, we are in for a rough and ugly future [10:13:20] chrono: i really need to take care of this day now, and do some stuff. But it was really nice chatting with you! [10:13:34] hope that you'll stick around here :) [10:13:39] yeah, this is one development of society I frown upon a long time, people just expectin and wanting "stuff to work" but having no interest in HOW they work and are actually build. In a few generations there might be nobody left, that actually can build stuff and the constant increase of user comfort makes it even less neccessary for people to learn [10:14:32] me too, like I said, I find this environment here very "common ground" [13:37:05] *** Joins: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) [15:03:08] *** Quits: Uncle_Fester (uncle_fester@RBOSE-auil1g.mweb.co.za) (Client exited) [15:58:59] *** Quits: Kebap23 (Max@RBOSE-a6t783.adsl.hansenet.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [17:49:11] *** Joins: Kebap (Max@RBOSE-a6t783.adsl.hansenet.de) [18:01:18] *** Joins: anne (anne@RBOSE-bs364d.centertel.pl) [18:01:47] Hi guys:) [18:04:42] hey anne:) [18:05:41] Hi DNS777 [18:05:43] :) [18:21:04] *** Quits: anne (anne@keep.it.simple) (Quit: ) [18:23:19] -nobody- Caly_ has joined on FREENODE [18:23:40] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> hi guys, I'm in a shop looking for netbooks (quebirc) [18:24:23] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> I have an issue though, anything I can afford has AMD C50 processors, all with Radeon graphics... [18:24:53] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> think you can help me find out wether there is any decent/functional gfx driver for it? [18:26:32] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> DNS777: Out`Of`Control magnetron [18:26:43] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> is the RBOSE server down??? [18:30:02] caly_ get a notebook with intel gpu, if you want to be sure its supported by free drivers [18:30:11] orly? [18:30:12] and rbose server is not down why? [18:30:19] D; [18:30:32] !w gpu [18:30:35] GPU (disambiguation) | GPU may be an acroynym for: @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpu [18:30:40] for: @ [18:30:45] ,acronym gpu [18:30:48] gpu may mean: Graphical Processing Unit and Ground Power Unit [18:32:13] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> DNS777: the webchat seems down [18:32:21] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> tried it here, from the computer store [18:32:45] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> kalken: or should I wait and search online for a better laptop/netbook ? [18:32:57] caly: http://webchat.rbose.org:9090/ ? [18:32:58] URL Title: RBOSE WebChat (qwebirc) [18:33:07] Fat64: maybe theres still an ip issue? [18:33:10] D: [18:33:17] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> got thjis ASUS 1015BX-BLK191S for 2290sek here... [18:33:33] IP issue, hmm [18:34:19] I can ssh to it [18:34:23] so no probs there [18:34:54] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> DNS777: yeah, I know, found this Packard Bell with Intel GPU and atom processor, perhaps a better buy, at 2990sek at mediamarkt [18:35:25] usually mediamarkt tends to be way more expensive than a "fre" buy somewhere on the net, at least in germany [18:35:27] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> Fat64: is kalken around? [18:35:31] btw caly just take h-node as guide :) [18:35:32] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> can't reach him on his phone [18:35:52] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> chrono I'm in Swden still [18:36:08] http://www.h-node.org/videocards/catalogue/en/1/1/undef/undef/works_with_3D/undef/undef/undef [18:36:09] URL Title: videocards - h-node.org [18:36:16] true, but it's the same company and probably the same ripoff policy, extortion goes on wordwide ;) [18:36:33] Caly: this page lists all known gpus working with 3d accerlation [18:36:39] kalken is eating delicious food last time I saw him [18:37:38] when you find something @mediamarkt you like, try to lookup alternative prices online for that device and confront the sales dude to offer you the cheapest price you could find only [18:38:12] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> chrono: nah, they have devent prices actually, only in town that had any real assortment of netbooks, and they had three decently priced ones, but I found a similar ASUS here at another shop for less. [18:39:35] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> thing is I'm kinda in a hurry, otherwise I would have ordered a laptop that are designed for free software online and waited 2 weeks for delivery. My abrupt dissaperance yesterday was due to mu laptop starting to smoke, and died. [18:40:28] oh no :( [18:41:57] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> sad but true [18:42:32] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> I might just wait til tomorrow and research a bit... [18:42:54] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> on moms computer ^^ winblows sucki-sucki [18:43:10] * DNS777 pukes [18:43:12] lol [18:43:22] !windows [18:43:23] I would be lost with such as restricted operating system and i would like to show you informations about Gnu/Linux. Check: http://rbose.org/wiki/Gnu_linux [18:44:46] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> ^^^ [18:45:14] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> only thing I could find was this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RadeonDriver [18:45:15] URL Title: RadeonDriver - Community Ubuntu Documentation [18:45:34] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> were HD6250 is listefd as working... [18:45:45] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> but hmm, not convinced. [18:46:11] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> nah, I'll slep on it and research some more before wasting my last bucks. [18:46:22] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> See you later. [18:47:43] Caly not sure if this info is based on free drivers [18:47:53] seems not [18:48:15] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> rigt.. [18:48:21] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> *right [18:48:41] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> fuck it, going home, laters folks [18:48:46] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> o/ [18:48:48] -nobody- Caly_ has left on FREENODE [21:00:46] http://mimiandeunice.com/2011/09/12/freedom-or-fairness/ [21:00:48] URL Title: Freedom or Fairness? � Mimi and Eunice [21:00:51] ,la http://mimiandeunice.com/2011/09/12/freedom-or-fairness/ [21:00:57] DNS777: The operation succeeded. [21:02:09] http://mimiandeunice.com/2011/09/08/protecting-artists/ [21:02:11] URL Title: Protecting Artists � Mimi and Eunice [21:21:24] -nobody- Caly_ has joined on FREENODE [21:21:35] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> hi again folks =) [21:22:32] 15<12DNS777@FREENODE15> wb [21:22:34] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> Now I'm at another computer, still, when I go to http://rbose.org/beta/irc/ I get: "Service Temporarily Unavailable The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later." [21:22:39] 15<12DNS777@FREENODE15> still cant connect to rbose irc? [21:22:47] 15<12DNS777@FREENODE15> wrong adress [21:23:09] 07<03Caly_@FREENODE07> well, that is where it links from rbose.org. [21:23:10] 15<12DNS777@FREENODE15> try http://webchat.rbose.org:9090 [21:23:21] URL Title: RBOSE WebChat (qwebirc) [21:23:42] *** Joins: Caly_ (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) [21:23:48] there there [21:24:12] :) [21:26:35] -nobody- Caly_ has left on FREENODE [21:31:47] so tell me, what laptop/netbook should I get? cheap and intel is my preferences [21:32:08] *** Joins: Hakufu (jonte@RBOSE-ma1m9h.bredband.comhem.se) [21:32:56] Caly_: im no expert in such as, but as i said, take the h-node page as guide. it will help you a lot on finding the right hardware which is supported 100% by free software [21:46:19] most issues with free drivers are gpus and wlan/lan hardware afaik [21:46:54] Caly_: ah and btw http://www.h-node.org/notebooks/catalogue/en [21:46:55] URL Title: notebooks - h-node.org [21:47:20] just saw that category [21:49:40] *** Joins: Caly (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) [21:53:16] *** Quits: Caly_ (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [21:54:11] *** Joins: cal (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) [21:57:42] *** Quits: Caly (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [21:59:39] cal have you seen my last msg? [22:00:01] nope [22:00:13] ill paste u in query [22:15:59] *** Joins: caly (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) [22:16:29] *** Joins: cal_ (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) [22:19:26] *** Quits: cal (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [22:24:01] *** Quits: caly (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [22:24:31] *** Quits: cal_ (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [22:25:19] *** Joins: cal (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) [22:34:07] *** Quits: ZyaX (9jti8d8@RBOSE-5lntnm.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [22:38:45] *** Quits: cal (qwebirc@RBOSE-legl65.telia.com) (Quit: Page closed) [23:50:23] DNS777: only amiga makes it possible! [23:50:53] will make what possible? [23:50:58] everything! [23:51:01] lol [23:51:15] actuaklly it were c64 who run in space shuttle k? [23:51:17] thought you had heard the song... [23:51:18] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWeO5IkCssk [23:51:19] You4Tube 2[Title] Only Amiga Makes It Possible 2[Category] Entertainment 2[Duration] 0:02:04 2[Views] 15163 2[Rating] 4.94 2[Uploaded] 2008-07-19 2[Description] Made for Commodore/Comdex Nov 1987. Original CBM Video from 1200 Wilson Dr. Archives. [23:51:21] lol [23:51:24] :D [23:52:01] uuh-uuuuh!