[00:03:51] we’re mapping food webs and food flows. In other words, we’re making the invisible information of “who’s got what, where, and trades it with who” visible. [00:03:51] Sharing data [00:03:51] Sit tight, developers, the API is coming very soon. We’ll be sharing most of the data we have. [00:04:07] http://www.sustaination.co.uk/#home [00:04:11] URL Title: Sustaination | Making it easy and profitable for food businesses to find each other, talk, and trade [00:04:31] elf-pavlik ^^ [00:20:57] Actually this explains better. Mapping links in the food chain. http://www.sustaination.co.uk/2012/03/why-would-anyone-bother-mapping-a-food-web/ [00:21:02] URL Title: Why would anyone bother mapping a food web? | Sustaination [00:29:45] http://blogs-images.forbes.com/bethhoffman/files/2012/03/BananasCookies1.png [00:49:53] *** Quits: antilect (antil@RBOSE-248fom.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving) [01:18:17] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE.org) (Quit: Leaving) [01:29:07] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-53n.6me.212.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [01:39:50] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-tbt.6me.212.190.IP) [01:57:10] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-tbt.6me.212.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [02:26:25] *** Quits: Kimsan (Kimsan@RBOSE-b8raf0.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [08:23:28] *** Joins: kman (kman@RBOSE-1vjua3.student.uu.se) [08:45:09] *** Joins: antilect (antil@RBOSE-248fom.bredband.comhem.se) [09:38:14] s [12:07:12] *** Joins: Kimsan (Kimsan@RBOSE-b8raf0.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) [13:26:22] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-mjrhkf.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) [13:45:26] *** Quits: nairboon (nairboon@RBOSE-vi8rlf.cust.bluewin.ch) (Quit: Ex-Chat) [14:12:23] *** Joins: Fat128 (webchat@RBOSE-48t8r7.srv.volvo.com) [14:14:50] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-tbt.6me.212.190.IP) [14:16:34] Hello :) [14:21:41] o/ [14:23:15] Hey kman, hows you smelling stick? [14:23:19] :) [14:23:30] Knew that one would come back to me.. [14:25:07] Noticed the allotment thing on the rbose wiki [14:30:58] I did some work on this which I thought you might find interesting http://piratepad.net/community-agriculture [14:30:59] URL Title: PiratePad: community-agriculture [14:43:36] DZR, a lot of the work we do in terms of governance is done by some of the principles you outlined. [14:44:10] However, the position we have ended up in is not having too little money, but rather to little time being invested by participants. [14:44:59] In terms of monetary resource requirements, the initial work (digging up allotments, establishing a water grid and so on) has already been covered by voluntary efforts alone. [14:45:22] I think this is a problem with any community growing project [14:45:48] Lots of enthusiasm but when it comes to it people dont turn up to do the work [14:46:27] I think that a way of getting over this is to crowd source some money [14:46:46] to pay one experienced grower to do regular work [14:46:48] Well yeah, so a lot of the work is about making sure that you can show people where there is potential for them to grow (both veggies and personally). [14:46:57] people are so used to being consumers so there is a big step in becoming producer :D [14:47:08] DZR, i do the work regardless if i get money or not. [14:47:18] I really prefer to involve as little of it as possible. [14:47:27] I love going to the community food projects Im involved with [14:47:28] Im there to grow myself out of the use of money. [14:47:36] :) [14:47:37] ^^ [14:47:54] But none of them are really focused on production [14:48:17] No but really, becoming self sufficient in terms of food is one great step towards monetary independence. [14:48:19] Oh ok. [14:48:26] What are they focused on then? [14:48:28] Someone at one of them described it more as a social project (which I think stands for the others too) [14:48:50] Kids that have been excluded from school. [14:48:58] Adults with learning dificulties [14:49:31] Or just people meeting up and socialising in a green space in the city (although also growing and easting food in the process) [14:49:34] Good thing to have projects around that. [14:50:05] I tend to focus primarily on the production of green things before anything else. [14:50:27] One of them I used to go to 20 years ago. It was planted up along permaculture principles [14:50:28] But yeah, its important to incubate the social life around it as well. [14:50:36] Awesome. [14:50:48] Since then it was deserted for 5 years [14:50:59] Shame ._. [14:51:04] Now its kind of a forest garden - fairly overgrown in places!! [14:51:15] Mainly common fruit trees [14:51:23] So the allotment wiki page is basically my attempt at creating a guide for starting up collective food productions systems. [14:51:27] In urban environments. [14:51:29] Very nice to go back (about a year ago) [14:51:42] So if your up for doing some collective research on that or just discussing things, lets do it. [14:52:01] Fruit trees are wonderful organisms in general ^^ [14:52:05] Very interested in this kinda stuff. [14:52:17] Yeah... and the other trees [14:52:25] :) [14:52:27] So what are you planning on doing with the material in the piratepad? [14:52:42] Dont quite know what to do now..... [14:52:53] Also heavily moving away from money. [14:53:13] Been involved with two fledgling co-ops in Brighton UK [14:53:47] One is a community land trust looking to get land (mainly for people to live on) [14:54:03] Sweet. [14:54:16] The other is trying to build some alternative ways of economically interacting [14:54:46] Starting as a consortia of self employed people who advertise together and help each other out [14:55:09] Builders, carpenters, mechanics, gardeners etc. [14:55:42] Trouble is I'm pushing the development of both of them [14:56:49] and finding it draining (and at times frustrating) that other people dont do work they said they would do (six months and still not made one phone call!!!) [14:57:03] Yeah its hard to limit ones involvement when your efforts give you the instant gratification of putting smiles on peoples faces.. [14:57:59] But what is your goal with that piratepad? [14:58:04] Whats the material written for? [14:58:06] There is defiantly lots of enthusiasm for both projects [14:58:21] Was ideas I've been kicking about. [14:58:46] I've touted the pad about various groups/mailing lists [14:59:30] I started looking from an economics perspective I guess [14:59:35] Ok, so just a way for you to share your ideas on common governance of farm land? [14:59:55] Looking at alternative economics and pathways that can be taken to something new [15:00:14] I see, i see. [15:00:31] Production of needs [15:02:01] Interested if anything like this exists [15:02:24] Also about develooping (or more likely supporting development) of such an enterprise [15:03:58] I'm really interested in how things would play out if there is a structure where any participant has equal power [15:04:14] and they are heavily encouraged to keep their agency [15:04:37] Well, that depends on how you define "equal" and what "power" your talking about. [15:04:45] Legal power? Social power? Monetary power? [15:05:54] The weight of an individual in a community is based on an unlimited number of variables. Its up to us to categorize them ^^ [15:07:25] Cant I just say power :) [15:07:41] Yeah I know this is complex [15:09:10] And I guess it has to be an ongoing desire to examine and address any power equalities [15:09:55] inequalities [15:10:06] Sure, id agree with that. [15:11:05] You heard of Reclaim the Fields? [15:12:02] For me the most interesting forms of power (lets call it that ^^) are those expressed from the responsibility structure of organization and the social power of the individuals. The latter, in contrast to the former, being something im not making planned efforts to change within my community. [15:12:07] No, whats that? [15:12:15] Im up for reclaiming fields. [15:12:41] I went to one of the UK groups gatherings [15:12:44] Last year [15:13:05] Only just read the European networks Bulletins - very interesting [15:13:20] http://reclaimthefields.org/content/bulletins [15:14:01] Also this book was a very interesting read http://www.akpress.org/2006/items/horizontalism [15:14:03] URL Title: Horizontalism: Voices of Popular Power in Argentina :: AK Press [15:15:12] Hey thanks for those ! [15:17:58] Horizontalism is a book of quotes from lots of people involved in all kinds of 'projects' [15:18:21] many of them to do with food growing, popular kitchems etc. [15:18:42] Lots of discussion about power dynamics they were experiencing [15:18:48] very thought provoking [15:20:42] Im interested about the organisational structure vs. social power structure dynamics [15:21:30] I think that they are some how tied [15:21:34] Oh yeah sure. Thats a topic you can dwell on for a life time. [15:22:10] Of course. Strong social images usually result in high influence over organizational structure. [15:22:17] At least thats my experience [15:22:31] Although the organisational structure may define a certain ..... structure [15:22:31] (reading the nr. 5 bulletin from RtF) [15:22:54] The social dynamics create something else.... [15:25:25] I think that ideally this needs to be acknowledged and efforts made to address [15:26:12] I guess the right structure (and processes) can do this??? [15:28:00] Re RtF and many other things..... I find that sometimes even though good ideas are being expressed [15:28:44] The language and way ideas are framed is somewhat off putting.... probably more so for other people than me. [15:29:24] Particularly when using language associated with 'politics' [15:29:42] Well, what im saying is that social power and power through governance are hardly separable. I dont have time to expand on that issue right now though.. [15:29:49] Oh yeah i can relate to that totally. [15:30:10] I think you can quickly loose a lot of people who would otherwise still be interested [15:30:28] Coming at the issue of food insecurity from a political perspective usually means involving a lot of monetary and capitalist structure. [15:32:35] ^^ discussion of ??? [15:34:37] ... and what did you mean by strong social images??? [15:35:35] Well people that take and recieve a lot of space in social situations [15:36:01] Discussion of how the social structure is connected with the governmental. [15:36:09] Ah... an individuals social image. [15:36:17] ? [15:36:21] Yeah, exactly [15:36:28] A bit unclear there ^^ [15:36:41] I'm following [15:36:53] you [15:37:27] (more or less.... I think) [15:44:49] Well social interactions are really what makes us, initially, come together and form organizational structures. [15:45:11] It also defines how the organizational structure evolves. [15:46:15] Therefore, i think its hard to make any sense of an organization without looking at the social dynamics within it. [15:46:51] The gender equality of the board, the age of its members, etc etc. [15:55:01] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-tbt.6me.212.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [15:57:50] *** Joins: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-tbt.6me.212.190.IP) [15:58:26] Dodgy connection here.... [16:00:25] A long term co-op worker and co-op developer recons the informal interaction of 'participants' is much more important than the formal interactions. [16:04:09] But usually, the informal produces the formal. Not the other way around. [16:05:26] Yeah, not only produces but continues to influence... probably much more than is often credited. [16:05:51] More than is often realized [16:06:28] Here is his blog post about it http://bobcannell.blogspot.com/2010/10/break-free-from-our-systems-prison.html [16:06:29] URL Title: bob cannell: Break Free from Our Systems Prison [16:06:43] Which makes any kind of community effort really interesting. Your social impact has a quick connection to how things might be structured in the long term. [16:07:28] Going for a walk. Brb. [16:07:51] I gotta shoot soon too... But nice to start this dialogue [16:09:47] *** Quits: Fat128 (webchat@RBOSE-48t8r7.srv.volvo.com) (Quit: Page closed) [17:18:14] *** Joins: Cyclo (cyclo@RBOSE-pdk.uv3.156.78.IP) [17:35:30] *** Quits: DZR (Darren@RBOSE-tbt.6me.212.190.IP) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [19:16:39] *** Quits: Caly (Caly@RBOSE.org) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [20:01:33] *** Quits: Kebap (LeckerKebap@RBOSE-2vlt3c.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [20:03:19] *** Joins: Caly (Caly@RBOSE-mjrhkf.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) [20:50:10] http://www.sustaination.co.uk/#home [20:50:13] URL Title: Sustaination | Making it easy and profitable for food businesses to find each other, talk, and trade [20:50:24] http://www.sustaination.co.uk/blog/ [20:50:28] URL Title: Blog | Sustaination | Making it easy and profitable for food businesses to find each other, talk, and trade [20:52:29] *** Quits: antilect (antil@RBOSE-248fom.bredband.comhem.se) (Connection closed) [20:59:40] *** Joins: antilect (antil@RBOSE-248fom.bredband.comhem.se) [21:03:16] *** Quits: kman (kman@RBOSE-1vjua3.student.uu.se) (Connection closed) [21:36:34] *** Joins: jonas (jonas@RBOSE-vlh86f.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) [21:41:43] *** Quits: jonas (jonas@RBOSE-vlh86f.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: Leaving.) 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