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[21:37:24] *** Joins: paxton (pax@RBOSE-82a1bb9f.dip.t-dialin.net) [21:37:32] hey [21:38:17] what you guys think about a new RBOSE project dedicated to find solutions and buildin plans to get out the monetary system? :D [21:38:32] i guess paxton you would like that [21:38:36] and maybe some more :) [21:39:49] define what you mean by getting out of the monetary system. we as a group? individuals? or society? [21:40:28] well all kind of stuff that we as individuals or all ppl can do [21:40:43] *** Joins: pax (pax@RBOSE-fb316304.dip.t-dialin.net) [21:40:54] paxton: well all kind of stuff that we as individuals or all ppl can do [21:41:31] oh thaht is easy [21:41:42] try to gather solutions from everywhere together [21:41:45] easy? :D [21:41:53] just kill yourself [21:42:04] ok thx for the advice [21:42:09] * DNS jumps out the window [21:42:14] jk [21:42:16] ^^ [21:42:20] just joking of course. but it has its merits [21:42:37] * lukas jumps as well [21:42:48] ;) [21:43:13] Guys... Suicide is not the answer. [21:43:15] Gosh... [21:43:17] LoL [21:43:31] mother nature would be pleased perhaps [21:43:33] ;D [21:43:37] there's a japanese film called suicide club [21:43:47] "finally this virus called human is gone puh" [21:43:51] lol [21:43:51] *** Quits: paxton (pax@RBOSE-82a1bb9f.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds) [21:44:03] DNS: "finally this virus called human is gone puh" <--- LoL [21:44:28] agreed Brandon, i also prefer 100% brain usage, screwdriver and supercomputers :) [21:45:02] I think I read somewhere that we only use 10 percent of our brains everyday. [21:45:07] Hi guys [21:45:12] Could you imagine if we used 100 percent of it? [21:45:13] LoL [21:45:17] Hey Viper? [21:45:26] Yeah [21:45:32] imean Yeah? [21:45:43] *) 100% of that what we can use [21:45:45] * BranManFloMore didn't mean to add the "?" [21:45:58] :) [21:46:10] My bad. [21:46:20] Kebap upload meeting? [21:46:28] record of last meeting [21:46:35] http://rbose.org/mumble-recordings/2010-07-31-1900UTC.ogg [21:46:42] http://rbose.org/mumble-recordings/2010-07-31-1900UTC.txt [21:46:52] thanks1 [21:46:54] I have to archive it on YOUTUBE tonight or tomorrow. [21:46:54] :) [21:46:55] ! [21:46:58] You're welcome. [21:47:44] Cool Idea DNS [21:48:04] yea [21:48:10] thx [21:48:21] His suicide would be a contribution to reduce over-population. [21:48:25] who would like to work on that? :) [21:48:25] LoL [21:48:27] how to perfectly derail a discussion :) ok, let's proceed. [21:48:41] dns sounds interesting to me [21:50:20] I need to go [21:50:30] see yea later folks [21:50:40] cu viper [21:50:49] bye viper [21:50:55] Peace Viper [21:50:57] * Viper stupid corporations [21:51:04] *** Viper is now known as [0_o] [21:53:07] !bw [21:53:08] [LAN]: Incoming: (1.84) kb/s Outgoing: (4.07) kb/s. [21:53:42] DNS, from organizations which i seen so far (except software groups) i seen all switching to money when they get to the point of a development when they could start to share something and change stuff, i want to do the other way, it resonate perfectly with me, i'm with you, i see no way to get rid of scarcity as long one needs to have something so limited like money to get a copy of a stuff [21:54:19] sounds gr8 :) [21:55:23] it partly has to do with fear. after that, when you already started to make money, you will never stop again. [21:56:04] that's why rich and powerful people rarely stand for change [21:57:12] as i like to repeat, it is ok to use money for initial investments. but only when that liberates you from future use of money. [21:57:55] the rich and powerful often sink in loans (or have another huge type of debt), which keeps them efficiently inside the hamster wheel [21:58:20] dont forget - success is a drug [21:58:53] yes, you are right, there is a lot, we cannot oversimplify it [21:59:27] let's base this project on the scientific method, if we can [22:00:01] :D [22:01:08] i mean, i have some ideas of how to exit but they may taste bitter without some 'homework' done before [22:04:06] are we going to mumble or text chat? [22:05:35] text for me works atm, if you don't mind [22:05:54] k [22:15:19] pax, are you going to add something? :D [22:16:48] don't want to spoil your original ideas. if i wanted to do a one-man project i had done that long ago :D [22:17:51] maybe we start with finding out how to approach it scientifically instead of empirically. but i am not skilled there [22:20:18] what do you think of concentrating on single persons? [22:22:10] (empirical part is the key, science cannot exist without experiment - in dark ages and ancient times that part was missing from discussion about world, people just trusted that what seemed reasonable) [22:22:30] what you mean by "single persons" exactly? [22:23:19] true. science end experience are inerwoven. i wanted to suggest we start with a hypothesis. [22:24:19] jacque has provided an idea how a whole society could exit the monetary system. so we do not have to go into that. dns' question seemed to show a need for personal or group liberation [22:24:53] "fuck-you money is defined as the amount of money that allows you to maintain your lifestyle at some desired level. " <-- lol [22:25:06] haha [22:26:52] i think it must start somewhere (like with free software) from a single person or a group of people, and then evolve and scale, you can believe me or not, but there is no software today working as good today as the one which is FREE :D http://www.top500.org/stats/list/35/osfam [22:28:06] overwhelming [22:28:39] and i fully agree. likeminded groups form around individuals [22:29:17] if i take it to extremes (and i do) one just has to stop using money [22:30:23] in auroville i met a couple from toronto who lived on next to nothing inmidst of a megacity [22:30:39] for years [22:31:34] of course that implied shitting in and feeding from the parks and forests. you cannot keep up sth that a consumer would call decent life [22:31:51] it is decent in other ways they told [22:32:00] i guess we seen a lot of cases as a result of a such choice, and i believe (based on experience) that a quality of solutions is proportional to time spend on solving a problem [22:32:12] more time for thinking, arts, family [22:32:53] i would be very interested in helping find that method to help develop free first individuals, then bigger and bigger groups, and guess that kalken with karma project would be interested in that as well [22:37:12] brainstorming: starting with a free transport grid could help distribute resources dynamically as those would grow by people mixing/remaking them/ adding work to them, then finding the key production points, making sure that the whole system can be copied and easily build, from locally available materials, offering after construction high quality and be simple enough to save load of time, then just showing to others that they can live differently [22:37:55] today i read an article which criticized the tvp vision. the point made there was that it pretends we could go on consuming without having to feel bad for the consequences it implies and that people would still behave like grasshoppers. key lies in the reduction of desires [22:39:17] the paradigm shift had to take place in our heads first [22:40:27] otherwise people say: well, it's free, but it's not cool [22:42:04] have you got an idea how such a transport grid could be established without money? [22:43:28] agreed, part of that could be achieved by optimization, modular and lifetime design, and elimination of the obsolescence, including the portrayed one, i personally like the idea of peer production (be able to create whatever you need, but with a need for an effort, recycling, rearrange what you already have - with free software you may program whatever new you want, but there is so many ideas that one should be aware that wishful thinking without codding is not a [22:43:29] way to see their dream in reality) [22:44:49] ...on the other hand we have almost 7 billions humans on this planet, so sooner or later people will get similar ideas [22:45:26] pax, no, i just thought about it when we started to talk [22:47:34] even if we take a bicycle, it costs more than e.g. a typical indian individual can afford [22:48:59] we would need to start with requirements, then resources, and then try to visualize best options, it can limit the size of such grid, its efficiency, but still we may find an area where that could work [22:49:34] once you have it you can do really cool things with it: produce electricity, pump water, drag a car... [22:50:43] hmhm [22:53:48] requirements depend on expectations. [22:55:29] yes [22:55:58] so how much comfort will we start off with? [22:58:03] we may start with two naked feet on a desert, can be only better than that ;D [22:59:02] well, that's easy [22:59:35] you need no money at all and start with what you find in nature's treasure [23:00:17] build a tent or hut with wood sticks and leafs [23:00:51] that's the point! :D everything is within nature's treasure, i don't know of any other item in the universe, people seem just forgot a lot of that [23:01:44] i call this disconnectedness [23:02:07] it goes as far that we are disgusted when confronted with a natural solution [23:02:29] or knowledge where our resources come from [23:03:21] we are siting on resources everywhere and don't know how to use it [23:03:51] *** Quits: God (God@rbose.org) (pms.rbose.org viper.rbose.org) [23:04:15] sad, isnt it? [23:04:38] it is even forbidden to do so [23:04:53] *** Joins: God (God@rbose.org) [23:04:54] we have to work around that problem also [23:05:11] yes [23:06:14] but there is hope: it's hard for politicians limit something (including methods or processes) about which they don't know yet [23:07:42] with science everyday is spend on a cutting edge, and by definition we work with unknown yet stuff, i guess we could stay few steps ahead of a slow bureaucratic machine [23:09:00] "richness is the damn hell for your soul, decadence the nemesis for your joy of life. Fuck the money!" [23:09:20] (from a blog) [23:10:24] we just need processing power, and "fortunately" we already may create free virtual intellectual workers (called programs) helping us, soon we will be able to create physical ones :) [23:11:02] :) [23:13:42] from my perspective these machines are all over, we just need to work with the open ones, and make sure copies can be easily obtained, with constant reduction of cost (targeting 0 as soon as possible) [23:17:19] pax: example of a great virtual worker: about 1 month ago i needed an application to help me construct big project, of few hundreds related and interconnected tasks and to automatically scheduled the project on calculate the time frames [23:18:18] i found not only this, but also a way to calculate costs, different accounts, efficiency, resource management, graphs of resource usage, what, when, vacations, and a lot of other stuff [23:19:04] it costs nothing and works for me a better than a than a team of people, also much faster [23:19:53] http://www.taskjuggler.org/ [23:20:14] sure. the power of community (in this case programmers) cannot be denied. this is already tending towards rbe [23:21:57] but please notice that you payed for your computer, the electricity, the provider, your food etc t [23:22:08] This is equal to an initial investment of money [23:22:36] which helps to liberate you from money in a certain field [23:23:23] yes, true, and i hope to help others skip those costs, same as i'm trying to reduce these [23:23:50] we could have that massive-scale if we reduced our desires [23:28:43] *** Quits: BranManFloMizzle (BranManFloMor@RBOSE-f6fff50e.us) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds) [23:29:46] i'm not sure what exactly that means for you, in my case i'm trying always thing "do i really need it? what for?" and i'm working on an algorithm to find the optimal choices, one of the criteria is "how long something will work for me/us and how much additional work i will be able to create with it", i chose in first order the stuff which offers the highest, long term gains, almost like in business, just i calculate stuff in J, N, K, s, W... :D instead of [23:29:48] currency which can be speculated [23:33:27] it doesnt matter what it means for me. i just found out that you can question absolutely everything you "need", except for a minimum of food, shelter and clothes. as you already have shelter and clothes, the only thing you have to care for to get free is food. let's go in the garden :) [23:34:21] all the rest really depends on your desires [23:35:05] then it boils down to the question how urgent the need to break free really is [23:35:11] i have one habit atm, which i really need to satisfy daily in whatever i do, and that shapes my values and desires [23:35:29] it's not coffee ;) [23:36:54] i just have to create, i'm not able to consume only, creating for me is expression of inner self, something what feels very good [23:37:30] thats great [23:37:30] and that require resources but it's all there, just takes work and skilled people to free it and distribute :) and then i'm not sure what will happen... world may go crazy or learn to share stuff according to capacity of our environment [23:38:51] "If a problem is fixable, if a situation is such that you can do something about it, then there is no need to worry. If it is not fixable, then there is no help in worrying. There is no benefit in worrying whatsoever." (XIV.Dalai Lama in an Interview with John Avedon) [23:39:17] nice :D [23:39:39] in the hope that it helps [23:40:04] people find that sentence weird. but such wisdom helped me very much [23:41:07] it's a great sentence :) [23:41:22] good evening folks :) [23:41:28] hey kalken [23:41:37] hi kalken :) [23:42:47] interesting things happening in the real world right now (e.g wikileaks) :) [23:42:48] i was just going to suggest a break for today, and that we need later really back to the DNS's idea with a more appropriate tools :) [23:43:12] fine with me [23:43:27] had a short night and tomorrow will be another umbrella meeting [23:43:37] whats up kalken? [23:44:12] kalken, a short summary/links? [23:44:30] pax: not much :). Pretty tired after one week with tin the RBOSE-camp [23:44:52] lukas: http://www.antemedius.com/content/wikileaks-posts-insurance-policy [23:47:42] pax: you? heard about a meeting with RBE etc went down yesterday right? [23:48:34] yesterday was an rbef/atlas/rbose meeting, yes [23:49:05] nice [23:49:19] we agreed that we would cooperate in the futue and also would build an umbrella [23:50:01] great. Personally i think that its the projects that should get the focus, not the "organizations" behind [23:50:10] sth which once was suggested to tzm, but they do pretty bad when it comes to making friends [23:50:29] hehe, yes. Current structures does not allow that in TZM [23:51:04] but "nobody seems to notice, and nobody seems to care" like george carlin would have put it :) [23:51:23] kalken: the projects will gain by that as we may be able to inforce those most needed, reducing redundancy and also bring new members in [23:52:09] sounds good [23:52:12] we know our roots, and sometimes they hurt, but we look forward [23:52:22] priorization and project management tools are needed then :) [23:52:54] right [23:53:13] zynergy has been in the discussion [23:53:39] great [23:54:26] if you have a little time join us tomorrow. those guys seemed very interested [23:55:07] pax: ofc ill be there [23:55:39] http://openetherpad.net/riVmHsV1Hq [23:55:50] vinces on vacation or something? [23:55:51] agenda for the follow-ups [23:55:55] lukas: you know? [23:57:04] kalken, 2 x yes [23:57:10] :) [23:57:22] [23:50:01] great. Personally i think that its the projects that should get the focus, not the "organizations" behind -- agreed as well :) [23:57:55] if somebody missed this i'll post it again. It was really inspiring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN00_v7gpbo [23:58:31] ... in another words: for example the reprap must be working, i really don't care who will first star to print pcbs with it :D [23:58:51] lukas: exactly :) [23:59:18] as long as it does the job its ok who every built it and what that persons "values" etc is. [23:59:28] its not really relevant when it comes down to creating stuff [23:59:36] and improving them [23:59:55] :)